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Old 03-02-2012, 10:33 AM   #1
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Does God Exist?

Hello,
Here I would like to start a serious debate on the existence of God. I would like to keep this civil of please no bashing or slander. Try to use logic, reason, and scientific evidence. Lets have a legitimate discussion here. Above all, lets make it enjoyable I'll start by giving my case for God's existence:

I will give one case for God's existence.

God explains the beginning of the universe.

Every scientist I know of today agrees that the universe had a beginning because of theories such as the Big Bang. The universe having a beginning has quite the connotation when we consider another scientific law: the Law of Causality. Basically this law says that everything that has a beginning, has a cause. We all know this to be true by common sense and reason. Something can't come from nothing. If the universe had a beginning (The Big Bang) and all things that have a beginning have a cause, what caused the universe? This cause would have to be 1) Space less. Because space didn't exist before the universe began, the cause couldn't occupy space. The cause would also have to be 2) Time less. Because time also came into existence when the universe began, the cause couldn't exist within time. And finally, the cause would have to be 3) Extremely Intelligent. Because there is such fine tuning in the universe, such as the certain amount of gravitational force and speed of expansion at the Big Bang, that means that the cause has to be conscious and able to think. So the cause of the universe is 1)Space less, 2) Time less, and 3) Extremely Intelligent. So by definition, cause of the universe is a theistic God.


Ok, there's my case. Please respond so we can talk about this. I thing this is the most important issue that mankind as a whole faces. I look forward to hearing your responces.
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Old 03-02-2012, 10:53 AM   #2
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Re: Does God Exist?

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Originally Posted by Ephesians2:8 View Post
I look forward to hearing your responces.
*responses
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Old 03-02-2012, 10:54 AM   #3
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Re: Does God Exist?

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Originally Posted by Linda View Post
*responses
Hahahaha
I guess i should have worded that different.
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Old 03-02-2012, 11:11 AM   #4
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Re: Does God Exist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ephesians2:8 View Post
Every scientist I know of today agrees that the universe had a beginning because of theories such as the Big Bang.
The Big Bang was only the beginning of the universe as we know it.

Quote:
The universe having a beginning has quite the connotation when we consider another scientific law: the Law of Causality. Basically this law says that everything that has a beginning, has a cause.
I don't think that's a scientific law. Causation is just a concept used in scientific enquiry.

Quote:
Something can't come from nothing.
Then what did God come from?

Quote:
So the cause of the universe is 1)Space less, 2) Time less, and 3) Extremely Intelligent. So by definition, cause of the universe is a theistic God.
That's deism, not theism.
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Old 03-02-2012, 11:32 AM   #5
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Re: Does God Exist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ephesians2:8 View Post
God explains the beginning of the universe.
No He doesn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ephesians2:8 View Post
Something can't come from nothing.
So where did God come from?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ephesians2:8 View Post
If the universe had a beginning (The Big Bang) and all things that have a beginning have a cause, what caused the universe?
Why can't the universe be eternal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ephesians2:8 View Post
Because space didn't exist before the universe began
How do you know?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ephesians2:8 View Post
Because time also came into existence when the universe began
How do you know?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ephesians2:8 View Post
And finally, the cause would have to be 3) Extremely Intelligent.
Why does it have to be intelligent? What suggests intelligence?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ephesians2:8 View Post
Because there is such fine tuning in the universe, such as the certain amount of gravitational force and speed of expansion at the Big Bang
What fine tuning? How does gravity and speed of expansion denote "fine tuning"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ephesians2:8 View Post
So the cause of the universe is 1)Space less, 2) Time less, and 3) Extremely Intelligent. So by definition, cause of the universe is a theistic God.
Your evidence is extremely circumstantial and based completely on assumptions.

The simple answer to the question of how did the universe begin is we don't know. The Big Bang Theory, which explains the expansion of the universe, not its existence, is the best explanation we have right now for the current state of the universe. Since the concept was proposed everything we've learned about space fits the model.
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You know why nobody has gotten evidence? God hasn't allowed that and won't.
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Old 03-02-2012, 12:57 PM   #6
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Re: Does God Exist?

"The universe is really complex, therefore God."

I know this is the easiest conclusion to come to and I've been there before, but ultimately it's a fallacy. It's like assuming that strange noises in the middle of the night are caused by ghosts without checking to see if there is a rational explanation for the source of the noise.

The Big Bang theory doesn't explain the origins of matter, just what happened after the Big Bang expanded. There are some things that science is unable to adequately explain and there's nothing wrong with that. If there's no evidence for something then skepticism should take precedence over assumptions.
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Old 03-03-2012, 03:45 AM   #7
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Re: Does God Exist?

I don't think our minds have evolved quite completely yet to understand the question in full.

Personally, I don't think the chicken or the egg happened. A discovery in the future will possibly give us more answers, but I don't think we'll know for years.
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Old 03-03-2012, 02:27 PM   #8
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Re: Does God Exist?

never believe anything anyone tells you.

The big bang is total bs. god and other religions are total bs. no one knows where we came from, and everyone apparently has a hard time accepting that. people can believe whatever they want. i believe that we were raised from the ground and someday we will return to the ground.
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Old 03-03-2012, 08:59 PM   #9
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Re: Does God Exist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ∆xitosus View Post
never believe anything anyone tells you.

The big bang is total bs. god and other religions are total bs. no one knows where we came from, and everyone apparently has a hard time accepting that. people can believe whatever they want. i believe that we were raised from the ground and someday we will return to the ground.
I think you're forgetting that out of all those, the Big Bang actually has scientific evidence that supports it. Raised from the ground by what?
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Old 03-03-2012, 11:28 PM   #10
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Re: Does God Exist?

The question is "does god exist" correct? Well you're saying yes based off of one aspect of how God created everything. To my understanding there is much more to God than just that, such as how he causes everything good and bad and has control over things and all that jazz.

I just don't buy into it because frankly, I don't like the idea. My boyfriend is Christian, and we were talking about God. He said that God was speaking through him. What? I don't want to talk to God, I want to talk to my boyfriend. Why is everything good I do because of God? Can't it be because I'm a good person? Why am I a good person because of God? Can't it just be me? I believe we are who we are because of how we're raised and because of our own experiences. Not because some dude up there created us in a certain image.

Plus, there is no proof of God. According to the church many years ago, everything revolved around the earth that God created. Well, we disproved that. Science is moving forward every day to prove the "whys" of the world. In my opinion, God is just an idea. It's a good idea and a nice one to believe in, that someone is always looking out for you, but there's no way to prove it.
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Old 03-03-2012, 11:53 PM   #11
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Re: Does God Exist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by vigilante View Post
Personally, I don't think the chicken or the egg happened.
What? Both chickens and eggs happened.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ∆xitosus View Post
never believe anything anyone tells you.

The big bang is total bs. god and other religions are total bs. no one knows where we came from, and everyone apparently has a hard time accepting that. people can believe whatever they want. i believe that we were raised from the ground and someday we will return to the ground.
Proof?
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Old 03-04-2012, 02:14 AM   #12
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Re: Does God Exist?

fuck life.
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Old 03-05-2012, 10:20 AM   #13
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Re: Does God Exist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scaredycrow View Post

Then what did God come from?


A theistic God is outside of time so it doesn't have to have a beginning.

---------- Post added at 08:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:25 PM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by DamnImGood View Post


Why can't the universe be eternal?
Because the universe has a limmited amount of energy (1st law of thermodynamics) and the universe is running out of energy (@nd law of thermodynamics) so if the universe was eternal, all of the energy would be used up.



Quote:
Originally Posted by DamnImGood View Post

Why does it have to be intelligent? What suggests intelligence?


What fine tuning? How does gravity and speed of expansion denote "fine tuning"?

Because if gravity was a little bit stronger the universe would have collapsed back into itself and if it were weaker, matter would not have come together. Also other things would be affected such as light (theory of general relativity)

---------- Post added at 08:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:36 PM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by rmg126 View Post
It's like assuming that strange noises in the middle of the night are caused by ghosts without checking to see if there is a rational explanation for the source of the noise.
The thing is there is no way to rationalize irreducible complexity if there is no God

---------- Post added at 08:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:40 PM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by rmg126 View Post

The Big Bang theory doesn't explain the origins of matter, just what happened after the Big Bang expanded. There are some things that science is unable to adequately explain and there's nothing wrong with that.


I know this. My point of bringing up the Big Bang was just to show the universe had a beginning.

---------- Post added at 08:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:43 PM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by ∆xitosus View Post
never believe anything anyone tells you.
So then should I believe what you are saying now?

---------- Post added at 08:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:44 PM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by ∆xitosus View Post
The big bang is total bs. god and other religions are total bs. no one knows where we came from, and everyone apparently has a hard time accepting that. people can believe whatever they want. i believe that we were raised from the ground and someday we will return to the ground.
Thats all fine an dandy that that's what you believe, but you cant just make a bunch of claims with no reason to back it up,

---------- Post added at 08:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:46 PM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trillium View Post
I just don't buy into it because frankly, I don't like the idea.

Weather or not you like the idea doesn't matter, it matters whats true. I don't like the idea that i'm going to die someday, but that doesn't mean I wont.

---------- Post added at 08:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:48 PM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trillium View Post
T According to the church many years ago, everything revolved around the earth that God created. Well, we disproved that.
So what? people who believer in god were wrong about something. That doesn't prove that God doesn't exist.
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Old 03-05-2012, 10:48 AM   #14
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Re: Does God Exist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ephesians2:8 View Post
A theistic God is outside of time so it doesn't have to have a beginning/
What's a "theistic" god? As opposed to a "non-theistic" god? Do you even understand what theistic means?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ephesians2:8 View Post
Because the universe has a limmited amount of energy (1st law of thermodynamics) and the universe is running out of energy (@nd law of thermodynamics) so if the universe was eternal, all of the energy would be used up.
Neither of those are laws of thermodynamics, so you're just plain wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ephesians2:8 View Post
Because if gravity was a little bit stronger the universe would have collapsed back into itself and if it were weaker, matter would not have come together. Also other things would be affected such as light (theory of general relativity)
There is no finite strength of gravity. The strength of gravity is directly proportional to mass. An object with more mass has more gravity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ephesians2:8 View Post
I know this. My point of bringing up the Big Bang was just to show the universe had a beginning.
No! The Big Bang doesn't show that the universe had a beginning; it shows that the universe started expanding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ephesians2:8 View Post
Thats all fine an dandy that that's what you believe, but you cant just make a bunch of claims with no reason to back it up,
Are you kidding? That's exactly what you have done.

It's really cute you're trying to prove a point by throwing out random scientific laws, but it's clear you have no idea what they mean, which in turn just hurts your argument as it's apparent you have no idea what you're talking about.
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You know why nobody has gotten evidence? God hasn't allowed that and won't.
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Old 03-05-2012, 11:19 AM   #15
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Re: Does God Exist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ephesians2:8 View Post
A theistic God is outside of time so it doesn't have to have a beginning.

Because the universe has a limmited amount of energy (1st law of thermodynamics) and the universe is running out of energy (@nd law of thermodynamics) so if the universe was eternal, all of the energy would be used up.
We don't know what anything was like before the big bang happened, or what other variables were at play. If "time" was essentially created when the big bang happened, then there's no reason that whatever was before that couldn't have been eternal.

I'd venture to guess that certain laws might not apply prior to the big bang, but I'm not a physicist.

Quote:
Because if gravity was a little bit stronger the universe would have collapsed back into itself and if it were weaker, matter would not have come together. Also other things would be affected such as light (theory of general relativity)
I think there are hypothesis that state the universe is kind of in some sort of cycle (expanding and then collapsing), and if something like this were true, then where we're at now just happened to be the one that is hospitable to life like ourselves (and thus, we are here to contemplate the complexity and origin of the universe).

I'm not saying this is true, just that there are a number of other ways one could explain complexity - just because we don't know, it doesn't mean it suggests intelligence or fine-tuning by God.

Quote:
The thing is there is no way to rationalize irreducible complexity if there is no God
You don't have to rationalize irreducible complexity if things aren't irreducibly complex.

Quote:
I know this. My point of bringing up the Big Bang was just to show the universe had a beginning.
Recall: The Big Bang was only the beginning of the universe as we know it.

Last edited by Scaredycrow; 03-05-2012 at 11:22 AM.. Reason: Took a break from replying halfway through and DIG beat me to it. Oh wellllllll.
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