I just wanna prove with this post that people who live in Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (F.Y.R.O.M - or Macedonia as they want to be called) have nothing to do with the ancient Macedonia or Alexander the Great because they claim that they're heirs of Alexander the Great, they have a 4000 years old history and modern Greece has "enslaved" Macedonia.

Here's a map of modern greece:



The blue part on the north is the greek province called "Macedonia". But as you can see F.Y.R.O.M is actually bordered with Greece and the greek Macedonia.
Many different ethnic groups live in F.Y.R.O.M. 68% of the population are "Macedonians", and the rest of them are Turks, Albanians, Bulgarians etc.
Well as you can see in wiki, in the link about Macedonians at the top of the page it says "not to be confused with "Ancient Macedonians" and "Greek Macedonians".

So according to wiki these "Macedonians" are Slavs. And Slavs came from northeastern europe in 6th A.C.

Alexander the Great was born in 323 B.C in Pella (todays Greek Macedonia). Ancient Macedonia was historically appeared in 6th century B.C. So 1200 years before Slavs appear.

The people in F.Y.R.O.M think, or actually they are being taught in schools (!!), that ancient Macedonia had nothing to do with Greeks and it's all their part of history.

The funny part is that Alexander the Great's father Phillip II fought and united every Greek kingdom (including Athens, Thebes, Corinth, Sparta and Macedonia of course) under his rule, to fight Persians. But F.Y.R.O.M people haven't learn those things in schools but everything is a huge propaganda.

So that's all regarding ancient history. The point is how did the name Macedonia appeared in F.Y.R.O.M then??

After the WWII and while Greece was in chaos because of a civil war, a part of Yugoslavia was named Socialist Republic of Macedonia but Greece had more serious problems to deal within the interior of the country and the politicians were stupid.

So until 1995 or 1992 we didn't say anything about the name until F.Y.R.O.M became indipedent after the dissolution of Yugoslavia. Then did the threats and provocations started. They used the Vergina Sun which was the characteristic sign of ancient Macedon as a flag:



But fortunately we reacted and they changed it.

Now they want to be named Macedonians although there is already the Macedonia region in Greece (btw they think that it belongs to them too + a part of western Bulgaria ). Anyway a logical person would probably say NO

its sad that F.Y.R.O.M. is teaching the wrong history lol

Don't expect much response here as a majority of members here are Americans who neither know much or care enough about Greece.

Vagos,

It sounds like you are the one who has been miseducated. Ask your teachers these questions:

1. Why did the Greek Province of Macedonia use to be called Northern Greece until 1988?
2. Why were ancient Macedonians not allowed to compete in the ancient Olympic games?
3. Did the slav migration into the Balkins in the 6th century AD stop at what is now the Greek northern border?

I am afraid that you and your parents and your parents parents have been fed a steady diet of lies since the 1920's by your government.

In answer to the 1st question - Greece changed the name of their Northern Greece province to Macedonia in 1988 becuase they could see that Yugoslavia was about to break-up, and they feared that would get the Macedonians who live in Northern Greece riled up, and they might start asking for BASIC human rights, which to this day they are denied.

Second question - Ancient Macedonians were not allowed to compete in the Olympics becuase only Greeks were allowed. It wasn't until Philip II conquered the Greek city states that they changed their mind and let the Macedonians into the Olympics. Makes sense, if the new boss tells you to do something, you do it, or else.

Third question - No, it did not stop at a line drawn on a map 1200 years later. The slav migration stopped at the Mediterranean Ocean - therefore everyone north of the ocean soon became a slav. Look at that map again - except for Crete and the other islands all of modern Greece is north of the ocean - therefore - suprise - you are a slav too!!!

If Greece was to acknowledge the Republic of Macedonia by its name, it would mean it acknowledges its people as Macedonians. In doing so, it would then have to acknowledge the existence of a Macedonian minority living in Northern Greece, which it does not want to do. Why? Becuase for the last 90 years official Greek policy is that Macedonians do not exist. Greece claims to be a 100% homogenious state - that means there are no minorities living in Greece. How is that possible? It's not possible, its impossible. But if they had to admit that there are Macedonians living in Greece, people who are not Greek, then they would also have to admit the past crimes of the state in trying to erase this minority from its country. How? By changing their names to sound Greek, by forcing them to speak Greek, and punishing them if they speak Macedonian, by changing the name of every village, town, river, etc. to sound Greek, by erasing the Macedonian names off of grave stones and church walls - so no record of anything Macedonian exists in Greece. That is the truth that Greece does not want to admit to, that is the truth that Greece does not want the world to know.

I could go on, but this lesson is over for now. Good luck with finding answers to these questions on your own - ask your parents or teachers for the truth, and if you are not satisfied with the answer, look in a book written by someone who is not Greek for an unbiased opinion.

PS. In future, don't use Wiki as a source for your education and fact checking - it is not 100% correct. In fact, it can not be used as a source in school papers.

So is this an issue over land that the FYOR Macedonians want?

No, this is not an issue over land. The Republic of Macedonia expressly states in their constitution that they have no terrritorial claims on any land from any of their neighbours. Besides, Macedonia is a poor country of 2 million people with a small, outdated military (less than 50,000 soldiers). Greece on the other hand is a country of 10 million people with a modern military and more than 200,000 soldiers.

This is a question of basic human rights. Rights that most people of the world enjoy - freedom of speech, freedom of association, freedom of religion, freedom to call yourself what you want. All of these freedoms are denied the Macedonian minority in Greece, BY LAW no less. The so called cradle of democracy (Greece) is in fact one of the least democratic countries in the world. Go look at the USA's CIA fact book from the CIA website and read about Greece.

If Greece agrees to the name Macedonia for their neighbour then they logically have to admit that there exists a race of people called Macedonians. If they do that, they have to then admit that some of these Macedonian people live in Greece. Remember, Greece states without question that their are no minorities living in Greece. If they admit this, then they have to answer what has happened to these people for the past 90 years. That is when the big headache starts for Greece.

More than 120 countries (out of about 180) in the world have formally recognized Macedonia by its chosen name, including USA, China, Russia, Canada, etc. Those who have not - Greece, France, and a few dozen more - why?

BTW - To use the acronym FYROM - even if you do not mean to offend, is offensive to Macedonians. They are not Former anything. They are Macedonians. It is like calling Ukraine "Former Soviet Union Republic of Ukraine" and not expect them to be upset. They were Ukranian before the start of the Soviet Union in the early 20th century, they remaine Ukranian in their heart during the existence of the Soviet Union, and after the fall of the Soviet Union they were Ukrainian.

Thanks for the compliment Sasha.

I care about Greece but i don't know a lot about it your right. If they have been lying try to get it changed.

Yeah i agree that calling it FYROM would be offensive to the people and that the Greeks should simply get over it and recognize Macedonia and the Macedonian people.

What i've read here in other people's posts convinces me that the situation in Greece concerning Macedonians is kind of like the situation in the 1900s in the USA concerning African Americans correct? If so then there is no room in a civilized first world nation such as Greece for such injustice. They should compensate any Macedonians that were caused any physical or emotional or property damage as a result of Greece's policy on Macedonians. and apologize to the Macedonians.

to achieve this the Macedonians should organize mass peaceful protests and speak out. they must make the injustice caused by Greece known to the world IMO.

Well, obviously a miseducated would call the educated, miseducated



The capital of ANCIENT Macedonia was Pella. Pella IS in Greece (and not even close to GR-FR borders). Macedonians WERE Greeks. THEY said so.
There were wars betweens Greek cities (like Peloponnesian war) BUT in time of trouble Greeks cities united (Persian Wars) and fought against the enemy as a Greek army.. That's what Phillip II TRIED TO DO! After Peloponnesian war, the great civil war that ruined the whole Greece there was CHAOS everywhere. And that's because of Persians political strategies (Corinthian war was caused because of them). Gorgias and Isocrates first talked about the "Panhellenic Idea", a plan that would unite every greek city. They hoped that some greek leaders would make this plan come real. One of them was Phillip II. After he defended Macedonians borders in the north from Illyrians and Paenians (if I spelled it correctly) he tried to expand so that he'd create a Greek nation. Most cities accepted except Athens and Thebes that resisted. Phillip defeated them and made an alliance with every greek city. Then he died and his son Alexander the great continued his work by defeating the Persians.. That's all about ANCIENT MACEDONIA!

Let's continue.. You said modern Greeks are Slav?. Everyone, even tourists can easily see the difference between Greeks and Slavs (Albanians, FYROM people and Bulgarians). Greek look like Spanish and Italian people and Slavs look like Russians.. 100% different.

Also why don't you read my first post. I HAVE EVIDENCE! REAL FACTS! Now don't tell me that EVERY Wiki article is wrong and the greek goverment complained Wiki and they changed the global history

Here's a quote:

Here's another quote about the Greek Macedonia:

So if there's a minority somewhere then that minority is the GREEK minority when Treaty split the byzantine greek Macedonic area into three.

At least Bulgarians may have more chances if the ever try to rename themselves to Macedonians because they conquered that part of greece for some centuries.

I've never heard that greek Macedonia was named North Greece till 1988. Who said that? I thought that from 6 B.C that area was named Macedonia.

So since you don't have any historical connection with ancient macedonia or greeks in general, you've never conquered the area of ancient macedonia, there isn't ANY FYROM minority in Greece (actually officially speaking there are 125 people from FYROM that live in Greece ) and as you say THAT THIS IS NOT AN ISSUE OVER LAND then explain me, please, why the heck are you so stubborn with the Macedonia name??

To end with I want to post some videos:

FYROM president back in 1991 was asked "Do you consider yourself heirs of Alexander the Great?" His aswer:

Here's a new question from the next clip: "Why did the history books changed in 1992. Till then there was NO reference to ancient macedonia or Alexander the great.

And if some users here think. Oh well that's from Greek tv how can I be sure that it's not any greek propaganda?

Here are some proofs from the HISTORY CHANNEL about ancient history - 5 parts


So instead of confusing the other users let's see who is the uneducated here and who is brainwashing the other people...

I'm waiting for an answer with EVIDENCE either from wiki or youtube videos (right youtube videos..)

And if you call FYROM people Macedonians then the Greek original macedonians are offended

Vagos,

You sound like you are getting mad. In fact, you sound more like an adult than a teen...are you sure you are supposed to be here?

Wikipedia is created by people on line - written, edited, altered. I could write something about myself, and anyone could come along and change it without me knowing. That, my teenage (?) friend is not a reliable source.

As for TV being a source, I watch lots of things on TV, and other than the news and sports, most of it is make believe. And even some of the news and sports is make believe, so again, not a reliable source.

Answer me this - why have over 120 countries in the world, including 4 of the 5 permanent members of the UN Security Council recognized Macedonia under its chosen name, while only 12 countries (Greece and France being the two of any significance) refused? Could it be that 91% of the countries in the world and their leaders recognize the right of people to choose their own identity and name, that people have a basic human right to self-identify? Do you mean to tell me that Greece is right and 91% of the world is wrong? Come on, even you can't believe that lie. Opps, wait, you have been fed a lie since you were born about the superiority of the Greek nation, how it has lived on from ancient times to present day - unchanged in any way, shape or form for 2500 years while the rest of the world and its people have changed dramatically, most importantly in their thinking. I am afraid that your thinking is stuck in the distant past, and that is not worth fighting for, now is it?

Show me evidence from a source who is not Greek, not Macedonian, nor paid or swayed by either side, that proves any of your points. It can't be done.

None of this matters anyways, borders mean nothing anymore, that is old thinking, again.

Below is a quote from Human Rights Watch - an internationally recognized, non-governmental, unbiased organization had to say about Greece in 1999:

"The continuing failure to recognize national minorities dominated the human rights landscape in Greece in 1999. Persistent discrimination against religious minorities and Roma undermined the government's previously stated commitments to religious tolerance and the integration of Roma into Greek society. Migrants remained targets of xenophobic violence and discrimination. The criminalization of libel continued toviolate free expression guarantees, and laws regarding conscientious objection were applied in a punitive fashion against those who choose alternative civilian service.
On July 23, 1999, a public appeal to the speaker of the Greek parliament and all political parties precipitated a national debate on the status of national minorities. The appeal, signed by Turkish and Macedonian minority deputies, and minority and human rights organizations, called on the government to recognize the existence of Turkish and Macedonian minorities, to ratify the Council of Europe Framework Convention for the Protection of National Minorities without reservations, and to implement the convention and regional agreements to ensure full human rights protection for minorities. On the heels of the appeal, public comments by Foreign Minister George Papandreou fueled the debate when Papandreou stated that Greece had nothing to fear from national minorities and that international treaties to which Greece is a party permit self-identification of minority citizens. These events elicited near unanimously hostile reactions from politicians and the media. There were calls for the expulsions from the parliament of the minority deputies who signed the appeal. Politicians urged Papandreou to resign or pressed Prime Minister Costas Simitis to remove Papandreou. The speaker of the Greek parliament summarily rejected the appeal."

Sounds normal to me, don't you think?

There are plenty more detailed reports such as this available on the US State Departments website and its yearly Country Reports on Human Rights Practices, just look up the year and Greece.

Vagos, I'm tired of typing, trying to convince the unconvincable for today.
Until next time.