But the burden of proof lies with those who do believe.

godless_musician wrote

"God is fake because:

1. There is no evidence of his existence or reason (beyond pragmatism) to believe he exists;
2. Although the majority of the world believes in a god or gods there are several clear motives for them to believe this whether it is true or not.
3. Depending on how you define "God" he may logically contradict the world we see around is. For example if you believe that God is both all-powerful and all-loving, then you run into the problem of evil.

So in brief:
1. No evidence
2. Wishful thinking
3. Contradictions

I list all three to be thorough, but the first is sufficient to show that God does not exist or at least is highly unlikely to exist."


Ok so for once, I agree with you completely.

So true Godless musician!




So not true Southern chic, wheres the proof??? oh and there is no way i can be gods child......Im the DEVILS! child

That's impossible, heathen. The devil is my gay lover!

rofl!! He any good? lmao

LMAO, thats a bit of a worry lol

fake its a coping thing

its why poor ppl believe in god a lot more
if u tink about it logically ull see there is no such thing as god

ppl who have ppl close to them who die use this saying " i have to believe there is a god or heaven bec i have to believe ill see my mom again"

something like that it just helps ppl cope, when the reality is there is nothing there after u die.

Well, not always. I don't know why people believe, but I'm sure there are several reasons. Among them, yes, is that some people feel they need belief to cope in life, but there are those who could do fine without religion but believe it is true and following it. I'm not saying that they are all irrational (Lord knows Thomas Jefferson, who was a deist, was not irrational) but as near as I can tell they are all mistaken.

Do a little research on the Hovind Theory it might spark a new feeling about god

and hes in jail because the government didnt like what he was saying not because of taxes

More Young Earth Creationism hoo-ha. No more evidence for this than there is for any of the rest of it.

i DO believe in god

OK

Form your own opinions
Let us form our own opinions about you and yours

Godless_Musician-

It seems we share a common interest, but our beliefs on theology couldn’t be further from each other.

You have posted some very good questions and arguments which deserve to be discussed and answers; at the same time, I think some of your arguments are invalid and lack logical support.

Your initial answer to the question of whether God is fake or real is a very good one. However, there are a couple of flaws in what you said:

Quote:

There is no evidence of his existence or reason (beyond pragmatism) to believe he exists.

There have been countless books and theses written to counter this argument; I will present evidence from archaeology and psychology for you:

Man has inherently displayed four characteristics throughout history:
1) belief in God/s
2) belief in an afterlife
3) the ability to speak – especially to God
4) prayer to gods

These traits are unique to man; no animal possesses these traits. Only man makes preparation for any afterlife. Only man shows any recognition of God. Only man possesses the faculty of true speech and language. While some birds have been taught to repeat words, they do not exhibit any understanding of what they say, or any ability to adapt their speech to a certain situation beyond repeated stimuli such as saying ‘cracker’ when seeing a cracker. They cannot communicate through speech to convey what they feel or want.

Quote:

Although the majority of the world believes in a god or gods there are several clear motives for them to believe this whether it is true or not.

I would like to know what clear motives you believe theists, monotheists, polytheists, etc. have for believing in gods. I can come up with some: fear of gods through the control priests held and still hold over people in certain religions; promise of a reward in the afterlife, which is a part of most religions; and fear of nature, believing it to be a god itself.

While there are many other motives, these are three common ones.

Christians, however, or at least true Christians, have far different motives for believing what they do. Call it a farce or coincidence if you will, all true Christians have experienced something working in their lives from the time they believed that cannot be attributed to just dumb luck. As one myself, I know what it is like to have my life changed by Christianity. To go from a friendless, angry little sophomore to a kid who felt at peace in life with more friends than he could ever want was a life-changing experience. Even if God is fake and religion is an opiate, like a famous atheist once said, I’d rather be living like He’s real than to be still stuck in my miserable hole blaming the world for all my problems, instead of seeing that I am a sinner and most of the problems in my life are a result of my sin nature.

Christianity is fundamentally different from all other religions because its motivation for belief is selfless. All other religions have something to gain for self; Christians seek to glorify God, although this can be hard to believe when you see many who claim to be Christians living for themselves. As for your claim that dying for something doesn’t make it true, you’re right. But similarly, the first astronauts to land on the moon risked their lives doing something that the believed would work. For all they knew, the moon could have been made entirely of densely packed dust that could have given way beneath them. The fact that they risked their lives believing that man could walk on the moon did not make it true.

Quote:

Depending on how you define "God" he may logically contradict the world we see around is. For example if you believe that God is both all-powerful and all-loving, then you run into the problem of evil.

This argument assumes that because God is all-powerful and all-loving, He could not by nature allow evil to exist. However, the Bible never describes God as all-loving. That is limited to His love for all mankind. He does not love the universe, though He maintains it in every aspect. He does not love Satan or his demons, obviously. As far as angels are concerned, I do not recall ever reading anywhere in the Bible that He loves them. They are the servants of man and God, doing God’s will in the spiritual realm.

As far as the question of why God allows bad things to happen, that is quite simple to answer. God does not want any man to perish (think Hell). However, He created us as beings of free will. He created us to love and worship Him, but without free will we could never truly do so. It would be as if I created a robot that told me all day long that it loved me. It could not do so in its own power; rather, I would have programmed it to do that.

It is the same way with God. He had to give mankind free will in order to love Him. Love is an action: it is a choice. We do not always like to be around our family, but we love them because we choose to. We choose to stick it out through the hard times even when we don’t particularly like each other, because of the love we have for those close to us. The same applies to our love for God. We have to choose to love Him. Adam and Eve chose sin over God in Eden, and therefore brought evil into His perfect creation.

That sin infected the entire universe, bringing about entropy, which is the underlying physical cause of death and decay. It affects all things, organic and inorganic, dead and alive. It also affected mankind spiritually. Every man that has ever lived, save Jesus Christ, has had a sin nature. This is what brings into our lives all sins we ever commit.

God, in His love for us, chose to have mercy on man and sent Jesus to die for the sins of all who would ever live. (But that’s a long discussion there!) Man has simply to accept or reject Christ to receive eternal life. Going back a little, God doesn’t want any man, woman or child to go to Hell. Therefore, He gives us ample opportunity to seek Him. Often, to compel us to do so, He will allow bad things to happen in our lives so that we may possibly begin to look for Him. Unfortunately, people often become bitter and angry toward God instead.

I’ll leave it here for now; it’s a pretty long post. Consider this one thing, though. If I’m wrong about God and Christianity, then I have nothing to lose. I’ll die and stop existing. No Heaven, no nothing. But if I'm right, and you have to concede the possibility that, according to evolution given enough time anything has a chance of coming to pass, then when I die I go to Heaven. Where does that leave you?

I don't see that belief is evidence that something is true. In fact, I find that the majority is usually wrong, except about obvious facts--and sometimes even those are denied. Also, religion's uniqueness to mankind is not evidence of a God--it's evidence only that we have this unique trait--some scientists even believe that disposition towards religion may be hardwired into our brains.

You basically named the ones I was thinking. But I think the biggest reason is that religion is always taught young, and it is hard to shake off as an adult. Then those adults will teach their children and the cycle will continue. Because we are told over and over in our childhoods that religion is true and it is the only thing that will save us, we believe that and pass it on to our children. Religion has huge inertia.

Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Jainism, also claim that their motives are selfless. Christianity is NOT fundamentally different from other religions in any clear way that I can see. And Christians are not fundamentally different from other people, except in their beliefs.

As I said, it depends on your definition of God. Concepts of God vary so widely that that argument is not always applicable.

If God gave us free will then why is it impossible for us not to sin? Has God revoked our ability to be good?