Does God Exist?

    • Does God Exist?

      Hello,
      Here I would like to start a serious debate on the existence of God. I would like to keep this civil of please no bashing or slander. Try to use logic, reason, and scientific evidence. Lets have a legitimate discussion here. Above all, lets make it enjoyable :) I'll start by giving my case for God's existence:

      I will give one case for God's existence.

      God explains the beginning of the universe.

      Every scientist I know of today agrees that the universe had a beginning because of theories such as the Big Bang. The universe having a beginning has quite the connotation when we consider another scientific law: the Law of Causality. Basically this law says that everything that has a beginning, has a cause. We all know this to be true by common sense and reason. Something can't come from nothing. If the universe had a beginning (The Big Bang) and all things that have a beginning have a cause, what caused the universe? This cause would have to be 1) Space less. Because space didn't exist before the universe began, the cause couldn't occupy space. The cause would also have to be 2) Time less. Because time also came into existence when the universe began, the cause couldn't exist within time. And finally, the cause would have to be 3) Extremely Intelligent. Because there is such fine tuning in the universe, such as the certain amount of gravitational force and speed of expansion at the Big Bang, that means that the cause has to be conscious and able to think. So the cause of the universe is 1)Space less, 2) Time less, and 3) Extremely Intelligent. So by definition, cause of the universe is a theistic God.


      Ok, there's my case. Please respond so we can talk about this. I thing this is the most important issue that mankind as a whole faces. I look forward to hearing your responces. :D
    • Re: Does God Exist?

      Ephesians2:8 wrote:


      Every scientist I know of today agrees that the universe had a beginning because of theories such as the Big Bang.

      The Big Bang was only the beginning of the universe as we know it.

      The universe having a beginning has quite the connotation when we consider another scientific law: the Law of Causality. Basically this law says that everything that has a beginning, has a cause.

      I don't think that's a scientific law. Causation is just a concept used in scientific enquiry.

      Something can't come from nothing.

      Then what did God come from?

      So the cause of the universe is 1)Space less, 2) Time less, and 3) Extremely Intelligent. So by definition, cause of the universe is a theistic God.

      That's deism, not theism.
    • Re: Does God Exist?

      Ephesians2:8 wrote:

      God explains the beginning of the universe.

      No He doesn't.

      Ephesians2:8 wrote:

      Something can't come from nothing.

      So where did God come from?

      Ephesians2:8 wrote:

      If the universe had a beginning (The Big Bang) and all things that have a beginning have a cause, what caused the universe?

      Why can't the universe be eternal?

      Ephesians2:8 wrote:

      Because space didn't exist before the universe began

      How do you know?

      Ephesians2:8 wrote:

      Because time also came into existence when the universe began

      How do you know?

      Ephesians2:8 wrote:

      And finally, the cause would have to be 3) Extremely Intelligent.

      Why does it have to be intelligent? What suggests intelligence?

      Ephesians2:8 wrote:

      Because there is such fine tuning in the universe, such as the certain amount of gravitational force and speed of expansion at the Big Bang

      What fine tuning? How does gravity and speed of expansion denote "fine tuning"?

      Ephesians2:8 wrote:

      So the cause of the universe is 1)Space less, 2) Time less, and 3) Extremely Intelligent. So by definition, cause of the universe is a theistic God.

      Your evidence is extremely circumstantial and based completely on assumptions.

      The simple answer to the question of how did the universe begin is we don't know. The Big Bang Theory, which explains the expansion of the universe, not its existence, is the best explanation we have right now for the current state of the universe. Since the concept was proposed everything we've learned about space fits the model.
      "I've never understood ethnic or national pride, because to me pride should be reserved for something you achieve or attain on your own, not something that happens by accident of birth."
      - George Carlin

      Striker88;1062839033 wrote:

      You know why nobody has gotten evidence? God hasn't allowed that and won't.
    • Re: Does God Exist?

      "The universe is really complex, therefore God."

      I know this is the easiest conclusion to come to and I've been there before, but ultimately it's a fallacy. It's like assuming that strange noises in the middle of the night are caused by ghosts without checking to see if there is a rational explanation for the source of the noise.

      The Big Bang theory doesn't explain the origins of matter, just what happened after the Big Bang expanded. There are some things that science is unable to adequately explain and there's nothing wrong with that. If there's no evidence for something then skepticism should take precedence over assumptions.
    • Re: Does God Exist?

      never believe anything anyone tells you.

      The big bang is total bs. god and other religions are total bs. no one knows where we came from, and everyone apparently has a hard time accepting that. people can believe whatever they want. i believe that we were raised from the ground and someday we will return to the ground.
      [CENTER][SIZE="2"]"I have heard there are troubles of more than one kind. Some come from ahead and some come from behind. But I've bought a big bat, I'm all ready you see. Now my troubles are going to have troubles with me." - Dr. Seuss[/SIZE][/CENTER]
    • Re: Does God Exist?

      Æxitosus wrote:

      never believe anything anyone tells you.

      The big bang is total bs. god and other religions are total bs. no one knows where we came from, and everyone apparently has a hard time accepting that. people can believe whatever they want. i believe that we were raised from the ground and someday we will return to the ground.


      I think you're forgetting that out of all those, the Big Bang actually has scientific evidence that supports it. Raised from the ground by what?
    • Re: Does God Exist?

      The question is "does god exist" correct? Well you're saying yes based off of one aspect of how God created everything. To my understanding there is much more to God than just that, such as how he causes everything good and bad and has control over things and all that jazz.

      I just don't buy into it because frankly, I don't like the idea. My boyfriend is Christian, and we were talking about God. He said that God was speaking through him. What? I don't want to talk to God, I want to talk to my boyfriend. Why is everything good I do because of God? Can't it be because I'm a good person? Why am I a good person because of God? Can't it just be me? I believe we are who we are because of how we're raised and because of our own experiences. Not because some dude up there created us in a certain image.

      Plus, there is no proof of God. According to the church many years ago, everything revolved around the earth that God created. Well, we disproved that. Science is moving forward every day to prove the "whys" of the world. In my opinion, God is just an idea. It's a good idea and a nice one to believe in, that someone is always looking out for you, but there's no way to prove it.
      [LEFT][SIZE=2]"Adapt and Overcome"[/SIZE][/LEFT]
      [RIGHT]"Funny how the truth sounds so cliche"[/RIGHT]
      [RIGHT]~Jack Ingram[/RIGHT]
      [CENTER]
      [SIZE=1][/SIZE][/CENTER]
    • Re: Does God Exist?

      vigilante wrote:

      Personally, I don't think the chicken or the egg happened.

      What? :lol: Both chickens and eggs happened. :p

      Æxitosus wrote:

      never believe anything anyone tells you.

      The big bang is total bs. god and other religions are total bs. no one knows where we came from, and everyone apparently has a hard time accepting that. people can believe whatever they want. i believe that we were raised from the ground and someday we will return to the ground.

      Proof?
    • Re: Does God Exist?

      Scaredycrow wrote:



      Then what did God come from?





      A theistic God is outside of time so it doesn't have to have a beginning.

      ---------- Post added at 08:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:25 PM ----------

      DamnImGood wrote:




      Why can't the universe be eternal?


      Because the universe has a limmited amount of energy (1st law of thermodynamics) and the universe is running out of energy (@nd law of thermodynamics) so if the universe was eternal, all of the energy would be used up.



      DamnImGood wrote:



      Why does it have to be intelligent? What suggests intelligence?


      What fine tuning? How does gravity and speed of expansion denote "fine tuning"?




      Because if gravity was a little bit stronger the universe would have collapsed back into itself and if it were weaker, matter would not have come together. Also other things would be affected such as light (theory of general relativity)

      ---------- Post added at 08:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:36 PM ----------

      rmg126 wrote:


      It's like assuming that strange noises in the middle of the night are caused by ghosts without checking to see if there is a rational explanation for the source of the noise.


      The thing is there is no way to rationalize irreducible complexity if there is no God

      ---------- Post added at 08:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:40 PM ----------

      rmg126 wrote:



      The Big Bang theory doesn't explain the origins of matter, just what happened after the Big Bang expanded. There are some things that science is unable to adequately explain and there's nothing wrong with that.




      I know this. My point of bringing up the Big Bang was just to show the universe had a beginning.

      ---------- Post added at 08:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:43 PM ----------

      Æxitosus wrote:

      never believe anything anyone tells you.



      So then should I believe what you are saying now?

      ---------- Post added at 08:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:44 PM ----------

      Æxitosus wrote:


      The big bang is total bs. god and other religions are total bs. no one knows where we came from, and everyone apparently has a hard time accepting that. people can believe whatever they want. i believe that we were raised from the ground and someday we will return to the ground.


      Thats all fine an dandy that that's what you believe, but you cant just make a bunch of claims with no reason to back it up,

      ---------- Post added at 08:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:46 PM ----------

      Trillium wrote:


      I just don't buy into it because frankly, I don't like the idea.



      Weather or not you like the idea doesn't matter, it matters whats true. I don't like the idea that i'm going to die someday, but that doesn't mean I wont.

      ---------- Post added at 08:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:48 PM ----------

      Trillium wrote:

      T According to the church many years ago, everything revolved around the earth that God created. Well, we disproved that.


      So what? people who believer in god were wrong about something. That doesn't prove that God doesn't exist.
    • Re: Does God Exist?

      Ephesians2:8 wrote:

      A theistic God is outside of time so it doesn't have to have a beginning/

      What's a "theistic" god? As opposed to a "non-theistic" god? Do you even understand what theistic means?

      Ephesians2:8 wrote:

      Because the universe has a limmited amount of energy (1st law of thermodynamics) and the universe is running out of energy (@nd law of thermodynamics) so if the universe was eternal, all of the energy would be used up.

      Neither of those are laws of thermodynamics, so you're just plain wrong.

      Ephesians2:8 wrote:

      Because if gravity was a little bit stronger the universe would have collapsed back into itself and if it were weaker, matter would not have come together. Also other things would be affected such as light (theory of general relativity)

      There is no finite strength of gravity. The strength of gravity is directly proportional to mass. An object with more mass has more gravity.

      Ephesians2:8 wrote:

      I know this. My point of bringing up the Big Bang was just to show the universe had a beginning.

      No! The Big Bang doesn't show that the universe had a beginning; it shows that the universe started expanding.

      Ephesians2:8 wrote:

      Thats all fine an dandy that that's what you believe, but you cant just make a bunch of claims with no reason to back it up,

      Are you kidding? That's exactly what you have done.

      It's really cute you're trying to prove a point by throwing out random scientific laws, but it's clear you have no idea what they mean, which in turn just hurts your argument as it's apparent you have no idea what you're talking about.
      "I've never understood ethnic or national pride, because to me pride should be reserved for something you achieve or attain on your own, not something that happens by accident of birth."
      - George Carlin

      Striker88;1062839033 wrote:

      You know why nobody has gotten evidence? God hasn't allowed that and won't.
    • Re: Does God Exist?

      Ephesians2:8 wrote:

      A theistic God is outside of time so it doesn't have to have a beginning.

      Because the universe has a limmited amount of energy (1st law of thermodynamics) and the universe is running out of energy (@nd law of thermodynamics) so if the universe was eternal, all of the energy would be used up.

      We don't know what anything was like before the big bang happened, or what other variables were at play. If "time" was essentially created when the big bang happened, then there's no reason that whatever was before that couldn't have been eternal.

      I'd venture to guess that certain laws might not apply prior to the big bang, but I'm not a physicist.


      Because if gravity was a little bit stronger the universe would have collapsed back into itself and if it were weaker, matter would not have come together. Also other things would be affected such as light (theory of general relativity)

      I think there are hypothesis that state the universe is kind of in some sort of cycle (expanding and then collapsing), and if something like this were true, then where we're at now just happened to be the one that is hospitable to life like ourselves (and thus, we are here to contemplate the complexity and origin of the universe).

      I'm not saying this is true, just that there are a number of other ways one could explain complexity - just because we don't know, it doesn't mean it suggests intelligence or fine-tuning by God.

      The thing is there is no way to rationalize irreducible complexity if there is no God

      You don't have to rationalize irreducible complexity if things aren't irreducibly complex.

      I know this. My point of bringing up the Big Bang was just to show the universe had a beginning.

      Recall: The Big Bang was only the beginning of the universe as we know it.

      Post was edited 1 time, last by Scaredycrow: Took a break from replying halfway through and DIG beat me to it. Oh wellllllll. ().

    • Re: Does God Exist?

      The question is pointless. The existence of a God can neither be Proven nor disproven. Belief in God has no empirical basis to it. It's all just irrational faith without any viable evidence behind it. Discussing the concept will lead nowhere. A god is not necessary for the universe to exist, but that doesn' t mean one doesn't. It just means that we don't know that it does, and unless it changes its current policies on making itself known to us, we probably never will. I really wish people would stop frittering away with this question. Nothing ever comes of it.
    • Re: Does God Exist?

      The bible says all men lie, but men wrote the bible. I really don't know, I consider myself an agnostic. I was always taught in school (kindergarten to ninth grade in a catholic education) that God plans our individual lives out differently. So, knowing this, he has 'programmed' people to kill, to deceive and to steal. This goes directly against the ten commandments in his own bible. I started to doubt religion once I started getting more into science. I am pretty sure it is impossible for someone to create an entire planet with their own hands from absolutely nothing. I won't get into much because I am not an expert in either religion, or science, but I am calling bullshit on the bible and it's teachings, and God himself. Who knows, maybe he does exist in some form. But if he does, I could care less.
    • Re: Does God Exist?

      i do believe in god, however not the way he is depicted in mainstream religion. religion assumes that earth is the center of gods attention, when really there are trillions upon billions of planets, and possibly more forms of intelligent life. proof of god, in my opinion, is intelligent design; open a physics text book and tell me that it's a coincidence.

      everything, in this dimension, is government by physics, chemistry, biology, maths, natural selection, psychology, and many other laws we most likely haven't discovered yet. there are most likely bendable, and maybe even breakable, but that is for another discussion. everything is so intimitely (and often invisibly) connected; if you remove one, the others die off). everything is connected through an energy, the cosmic energy (GOD). if you have ever meditated (as I have), you can feel it. you can feel it when you cry, when you are happy, when you are expressing your emotions or even just experiencing the love of an animal. there is, however, a dark energy. dark matter (Satan). you can feel it when you listen to a politican lie, a banker forclose a house, when countries go to war. we are currently living a world dominate by material, or dark energy (Satan). the only way to escape is to accept love, peace, and understanding as the law of the universe. as crowley said "love is the law, love how thow wilt"
      [FONT="Arial Black"][COLOR="Indigo"][CENTER]&&Do What Thou Wilt&&[/CENTER][/COLOR][/FONT]