Does God Exist?

Ephesians2:8 · Mar 2nd 2012, 4:03am

Hello,
Here I would like to start a serious debate on the existence of God. I would like to keep this civil of please no bashing or slander. Try to use logic, reason, and scientific evidence. Lets have a legitimate discussion here. Above all, lets make it enjoyable

I'll start by giving my case for God's existence:

I will give one case for God's existence.

God explains the beginning of the universe.

Every scientist I know of today agrees that the universe had a beginning because of theories such as the Big Bang. The universe having a beginning has quite the connotation when we consider another scientific law: the Law of Causality. Basically this law says that everything that has a beginning, has a cause. We all know this to be true by common sense and reason. Something can't come from nothing. If the universe had a beginning (The Big Bang) and all things that have a beginning have a cause, what caused the universe? This cause would have to be 1) Space less. Because space didn't exist before the universe began, the cause couldn't occupy space. The cause would also have to be 2) Time less. Because time also came into existence when the universe began, the cause couldn't exist within time. And finally, the cause would have to be 3) Extremely Intelligent. Because there is such fine tuning in the universe, such as the certain amount of gravitational force and speed of expansion at the Big Bang, that means that the cause has to be conscious and able to think. So the cause of the universe is 1)Space less, 2) Time less, and 3) Extremely Intelligent. So by definition, cause of the universe is a theistic God.

Ok, there's my case. Please respond so we can talk about this. I thing this is the most important issue that mankind as a whole faces. I look forward to hearing your responces.

Linda · Mar 2nd 2012, 4:23am

Ephesians2:8 wrote:

I look forward to hearing your responces.

*responses

Ephesians2:8 · Mar 2nd 2012, 4:24am

Linda wrote:

*responses

Hahahaha
I guess i should have worded that different.

Scaredycrow · Mar 2nd 2012, 4:41am

Ephesians2:8 wrote:

Every scientist I know of today agrees that the universe had a beginning because of theories such as the Big Bang.

The Big Bang was only the beginning of the universe as we know it.

The universe having a beginning has quite the connotation when we consider another scientific law: the Law of Causality. Basically this law says that everything that has a beginning, has a cause.

I don't think that's a scientific law. Causation is just a concept used in scientific enquiry.

Something can't come from nothing.

Then what did God come from?

So the cause of the universe is 1)Space less, 2) Time less, and 3) Extremely Intelligent. So by definition, cause of the universe is a theistic God.

That's deism, not theism.

DamnImGood · Mar 2nd 2012, 5:02am

Ephesians2:8 wrote:

God explains the beginning of the universe.

No He doesn't.

Ephesians2:8 wrote:

Something can't come from nothing.

So where did God come from?

Ephesians2:8 wrote:

If the universe had a beginning (The Big Bang) and all things that have a beginning have a cause, what caused the universe?

Why can't the universe be eternal?

Ephesians2:8 wrote:

Because space didn't exist before the universe began

How do you know?

Ephesians2:8 wrote:

Because time also came into existence when the universe began

How do you know?

Ephesians2:8 wrote:

And finally, the cause would have to be 3) Extremely Intelligent.

Why does it have to be intelligent? What suggests intelligence?

Ephesians2:8 wrote:

Because there is such fine tuning in the universe, such as the certain amount of gravitational force and speed of expansion at the Big Bang

What fine tuning? How does gravity and speed of expansion denote "fine tuning"?

Ephesians2:8 wrote:

So the cause of the universe is 1)Space less, 2) Time less, and 3) Extremely Intelligent. So by definition, cause of the universe is a theistic God.

Your evidence is extremely circumstantial and based completely on assumptions.

The simple answer to the question of how did the universe begin is we don't know. The Big Bang Theory, which explains the expansion of the universe, not its existence, is the best explanation we have right now for the current state of the universe. Since the concept was proposed everything we've learned about space fits the model.

xyz123456 · Mar 2nd 2012, 6:27am

"The universe is really complex, therefore God."

I know this is the easiest conclusion to come to and I've been there before, but ultimately it's a fallacy. It's like assuming that strange noises in the middle of the night are caused by ghosts without checking to see if there is a rational explanation for the source of the noise.

The Big Bang theory doesn't explain the origins of matter, just what happened after the Big Bang expanded. There are some things that science is unable to adequately explain and there's nothing wrong with that. If there's no evidence for something then skepticism should take precedence over assumptions.

Manny · Mar 2nd 2012, 9:15pm

I don't think our minds have evolved quite completely yet to understand the question in full.

Personally, I don't think the chicken or the egg happened. A discovery in the future will possibly give us more answers, but I don't think we'll know for years.

Æxitosus · Mar 3rd 2012, 7:57am

never believe anything anyone tells you.

The big bang is total bs. god and other religions are total bs. no one knows where we came from, and everyone apparently has a hard time accepting that. people can believe whatever they want. i believe that we were raised from the ground and someday we will return to the ground.

xyz123456 · Mar 3rd 2012, 2:29pm

Æxitosus wrote:

never believe anything anyone tells you.

The big bang is total bs. god and other religions are total bs. no one knows where we came from, and everyone apparently has a hard time accepting that. people can believe whatever they want. i believe that we were raised from the ground and someday we will return to the ground.

I think you're forgetting that out of all those, the Big Bang actually has scientific evidence that supports it. Raised from the ground by what?

Trillium · Mar 3rd 2012, 4:58pm

The question is "does god exist" correct? Well you're saying yes based off of one aspect of how God created everything. To my understanding there is much more to God than just that, such as how he causes everything good and bad and has control over things and all that jazz.

I just don't buy into it because frankly, I don't like the idea. My boyfriend is Christian, and we were talking about God. He said that God was speaking through him. What? I don't want to talk to God, I want to talk to my boyfriend. Why is everything good I do because of God? Can't it be because I'm a good person? Why am I a good person because of God? Can't it just be me? I believe we are who we are because of how we're raised and because of our own experiences. Not because some dude up there created us in a certain image.

Plus, there is no proof of God. According to the church many years ago, everything revolved around the earth that God created. Well, we disproved that. Science is moving forward every day to prove the "whys" of the world. In my opinion, God is just an idea. It's a good idea and a nice one to believe in, that someone is always looking out for you, but there's no way to prove it.

Scaredycrow · Mar 3rd 2012, 5:23pm

vigilante wrote:

Personally, I don't think the chicken or the egg happened.

What?

Both chickens and eggs happened. :p

Æxitosus wrote:

never believe anything anyone tells you.

The big bang is total bs. god and other religions are total bs. no one knows where we came from, and everyone apparently has a hard time accepting that. people can believe whatever they want. i believe that we were raised from the ground and someday we will return to the ground.

Proof?

scotlandKEV · Mar 3rd 2012, 7:44pm

fuck life.

Ephesians2:8 · Mar 5th 2012, 3:50am

Scaredycrow wrote:

Then what did God come from?

A theistic God is outside of time so it doesn't have to have a beginning.

---------- Post added at 08:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:25 PM ----------

DamnImGood wrote:

Why can't the universe be eternal?

Because the universe has a limmited amount of energy (1st law of thermodynamics) and the universe is running out of energy (@nd law of thermodynamics) so if the universe was eternal, all of the energy would be used up.

DamnImGood wrote:

Why does it have to be intelligent? What suggests intelligence?

What fine tuning? How does gravity and speed of expansion denote "fine tuning"?

Because if gravity was a little bit stronger the universe would have collapsed back into itself and if it were weaker, matter would not have come together. Also other things would be affected such as light (theory of general relativity)

---------- Post added at 08:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:36 PM ----------

rmg126 wrote:

It's like assuming that strange noises in the middle of the night are caused by ghosts without checking to see if there is a rational explanation for the source of the noise.

The thing is there is no way to rationalize irreducible complexity if there is no God

---------- Post added at 08:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:40 PM ----------

rmg126 wrote:

The Big Bang theory doesn't explain the origins of matter, just what happened after the Big Bang expanded. There are some things that science is unable to adequately explain and there's nothing wrong with that.

I know this. My point of bringing up the Big Bang was just to show the universe had a beginning.

---------- Post added at 08:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:43 PM ----------

Æxitosus wrote:

never believe anything anyone tells you.

So then should I believe what you are saying now?

---------- Post added at 08:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:44 PM ----------

Æxitosus wrote:

The big bang is total bs. god and other religions are total bs. no one knows where we came from, and everyone apparently has a hard time accepting that. people can believe whatever they want. i believe that we were raised from the ground and someday we will return to the ground.

Thats all fine an dandy that that's what you believe, but you cant just make a bunch of claims with no reason to back it up,

---------- Post added at 08:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:46 PM ----------

Trillium wrote:

I just don't buy into it because frankly, I don't like the idea.

Weather or not you like the idea doesn't matter, it matters whats true. I don't like the idea that i'm going to die someday, but that doesn't mean I wont.

---------- Post added at 08:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:48 PM ----------

Trillium wrote:

T According to the church many years ago, everything revolved around the earth that God created. Well, we disproved that.

So what? people who believer in god were wrong about something. That doesn't prove that God doesn't exist.

DamnImGood · Mar 5th 2012, 4:18am

Ephesians2:8 wrote:

A theistic God is outside of time so it doesn't have to have a beginning/

What's a "theistic" god? As opposed to a "non-theistic" god? Do you even understand what theistic means?

Ephesians2:8 wrote:

Because the universe has a limmited amount of energy (1st law of thermodynamics) and the universe is running out of energy (@nd law of thermodynamics) so if the universe was eternal, all of the energy would be used up.

Neither of those are laws of thermodynamics, so you're just plain wrong.

Ephesians2:8 wrote:

Because if gravity was a little bit stronger the universe would have collapsed back into itself and if it were weaker, matter would not have come together. Also other things would be affected such as light (theory of general relativity)

There is no finite strength of gravity. The strength of gravity is directly proportional to mass. An object with more mass has more gravity.

Ephesians2:8 wrote:

I know this. My point of bringing up the Big Bang was just to show the universe had a beginning.

No! The Big Bang doesn't show that the universe had a beginning; it shows that the universe started expanding.

Ephesians2:8 wrote:

Thats all fine an dandy that that's what you believe, but you cant just make a bunch of claims with no reason to back it up,

Are you kidding? That's exactly what you have done.

It's really cute you're trying to prove a point by throwing out random scientific laws, but it's clear you have no idea what they mean, which in turn just hurts your argument as it's apparent you have no idea what you're talking about.

Scaredycrow · Mar 5th 2012, 4:49am

Ephesians2:8 wrote:

A theistic God is outside of time so it doesn't have to have a beginning.

Because the universe has a limmited amount of energy (1st law of thermodynamics) and the universe is running out of energy (@nd law of thermodynamics) so if the universe was eternal, all of the energy would be used up.

We don't know what anything was like before the big bang happened, or what other variables were at play. If "time" was essentially created when the big bang happened, then there's no reason that whatever was before that couldn't have been eternal.

I'd venture to guess that certain laws might not apply prior to the big bang, but I'm not a physicist.

Because if gravity was a little bit stronger the universe would have collapsed back into itself and if it were weaker, matter would not have come together. Also other things would be affected such as light (theory of general relativity)

I think there are hypothesis that state the universe is kind of in some sort of cycle (expanding and then collapsing), and if something like this were true, then where we're at now just happened to be the one that is hospitable to life like ourselves (and thus, we are here to contemplate the complexity and origin of the universe).

I'm not saying this is true, just that there are a number of other ways one could explain complexity - just because we don't know, it doesn't mean it suggests intelligence or fine-tuning by God.

The thing is there is no way to rationalize irreducible complexity if there is no God

You don't have to rationalize irreducible complexity if things aren't irreducibly complex.

I know this. My point of bringing up the Big Bang was just to show the universe had a beginning.

Recall: The Big Bang was only the beginning of the universe as we know it.

username #91 · Mar 5th 2012, 5:57am

No, he doesn't.

plax77 · Mar 5th 2012, 7:03am

For me, the reality is that the belief of "The need of a timeline" with a beginning and an ending, is itself an Abrahamic belief. You don't need a beginning and an ending to have an existence.

Arcadeus · Mar 5th 2012, 4:17pm

The question is pointless. The existence of a God can neither be Proven nor disproven. Belief in God has no empirical basis to it. It's all just irrational faith without any viable evidence behind it. Discussing the concept will lead nowhere. A god is not necessary for the universe to exist, but that doesn' t mean one doesn't. It just means that we don't know that it does, and unless it changes its current policies on making itself known to us, we probably never will. I really wish people would stop frittering away with this question. Nothing ever comes of it.

Rabush91 · Mar 11th 2012, 4:18am

The bible says all men lie, but men wrote the bible. I really don't know, I consider myself an agnostic. I was always taught in school (kindergarten to ninth grade in a catholic education) that God plans our individual lives out differently. So, knowing this, he has 'programmed' people to kill, to deceive and to steal. This goes directly against the ten commandments in his own bible. I started to doubt religion once I started getting more into science. I am pretty sure it is impossible for someone to create an entire planet with their own hands from absolutely nothing. I won't get into much because I am not an expert in either religion, or science, but I am calling bullshit on the bible and it's teachings, and God himself. Who knows, maybe he does exist in some form. But if he does, I could care less.

xoxcarouselxox · Mar 16th 2012, 10:42pm

i do believe in god, however not the way he is depicted in mainstream religion. religion assumes that earth is the center of gods attention, when really there are trillions upon billions of planets, and possibly more forms of intelligent life. proof of god, in my opinion, is intelligent design; open a physics text book and tell me that it's a coincidence.

everything, in this dimension, is government by physics, chemistry, biology, maths, natural selection, psychology, and many other laws we most likely haven't discovered yet. there are most likely bendable, and maybe even breakable, but that is for another discussion. everything is so intimitely (and often invisibly) connected; if you remove one, the others die off). everything is connected through an energy, the cosmic energy (GOD). if you have ever meditated (as I have), you can feel it. you can feel it when you cry, when you are happy, when you are expressing your emotions or even just experiencing the love of an animal. there is, however, a dark energy. dark matter (Satan). you can feel it when you listen to a politican lie, a banker forclose a house, when countries go to war. we are currently living a world dominate by material, or dark energy (Satan). the only way to escape is to accept love, peace, and understanding as the law of the universe. as crowley said "love is the law, love how thow wilt"

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