Abortion

    • Should abortion be acceptable 2
      1.  
        Under no circumstances exept for life of the mother as doctors can be largely incorrec in thier diagnosis. The baby can also feel it and it destroys life. (1) 50%
      2.  
        Abortion is not acceptale ecept in Rape incest and life of the mother. (1) 50%
      3.  
        Abortion is acceptable at any time before the third trimester even though the baby can feel it. (0) 0%
      4.  
        None of the above (0) 0%
      Inside the mother the baby( Coomonly called fetus but it just means baby in greek or latin I forgot which one) After everal weeks that baby can feel pain!
    • I think we need to be mindful to treat women with compassion, especially when they say they've been sexually assaulted. That way, women won't be afraid to come forward when they've been hurt in such a way that they can get pregnant. These women will, hopefully, get the medical treatment they need so they won't get pregnant and they won't have to worry about getting an abortion.

      So the only time a woman would need to get an abortion is if her life is in danger (and I don't think most people are against abortion under those circumstances) or if the woman doesn't want the baby.

      I know it's convenient for a woman to have the option of having an abortion if she doesn't want the child, but human life begins at conception so an abortion is killing a human being. It would be much better if the woman allowed the human being to grow inside her and be born. Then if the woman still doesn't want the baby, she could put the baby up for adoption. There are lots of couples who can't have children and would love to have a newborn baby.
    • I think that women’s body’s are their own, and no body at all can tell them what to do with it. Personally I wouldn’t get an abortion but I wouldn’t get mad at people choosing to because at the end of the day it’s their body and I have nothing to do with it. It’s like having tattoos, and plastic surgery, you can do whatever feels right with your body. I’m against getting plastic surgery but I’m not going to judge anyone for getting it, it’s not my decision to make. And I’m appalled that the question of making abortion illegal even came up, it’s not for anyone but the woman who is carrying the baby to decide. Especially if it wasn’t in their intention to have a baby and/or they got raped and don’t want to have a child that would resemble the assaulter, no one should judge something that is not their own.
    • It is up to the woman to decide. And no, aborting a foetus in the first weeks of conception is not 'killing a human being'.

      And no, we shouldn't treat women 'with compassion'. It's 21th century, and we must treat women and men the same: as intelligent beings with their own conscience guiding them. Women in most countries don't need compassion, they need equal rights, freedom, justice, independance.

      So of course they should be totally free to decide about such matters whatever the circumstances and reasons. It should be their decision, and their decision alone.
    • Just a few points:

      Abortion has been legal since the 1970's but it had always been illegal before that.

      Tattoos and plastic surgery don't involve the killing of another human being.

      And yes, a woman is carrying a human being inside of her uterus as soon as conception takes place:
      a female sex cell (an ovum) with 23 chromosomes becomes a human being when
      a male sex cell (a sperm, also with 23 chromosomes) penetrates the wall of the ovum and it now is
      a 46 chromosomes organism = a human being.

      "It" already has a gender, separate DNA from his/her mother, etc.

      Likewise, an embryo and a fetus are also a human being.

      These are medical, scientific facts.

      We can't change the facts just because we'd like them to be different.

      We can't turn a blind eye to the facts because we want the convenience of "getting rid of a problem" or because we make money off of performing abortions. (Performing abortions is big business in our society.)

      Yes, it would be great if having an abortion was like having an appendix removed or
      "donating" a fetus/embryo was like donating a kidney. But it's not.

      The "thing" growing inside of our uterus is a separate albeit temporary human being - whether we like it or not.

      pauline wrote:

      I think we need to be mindful to treat women with compassion, especially when they say they've been sexually assaulted. That way, women won't be afraid to come forward when they've been hurt in such a way that they can get pregnant. These women will, hopefully, get the medical treatment they need so they won't get pregnant and they won't have to worry about getting an abortion.
      I stand by what I said. And if you, dolphinsword, were raped, sexually molested by a stepdad, etc., I'd show compassion to you. I'd also show compassion to a man if he was raped/sexually assaulted.

      Having equal rights, freedom, justice, and independence doesn't prevent us from getting raped. We still need to deal with that.

      If people acted like intelligent beings with their own conscience guiding them, there wouldn't be a need for laws because we'd do the right thing in the first place.
    • I won't just rewrite what you 3 did already. My opinion in short: Up to a certain point of pregnancy, every female has the right to abort.
      But to be honest, i myself can't say what point that is. And Pauline, you stated some facts, most are true, but there is still a debate when you no longer are allowed to abort. Some like you say from the moment of impregnation, others say at a later point.
      And in case of a sexually assaulted female, i am absolutely fine with them aborting the child. It takes months before the child is born and ready for adoption. In this time she would suffer, because the child reminds her of that horrific event every moment.
      curious open-minded short but not so short guy from Germany. open for conversations/PMs, all topics, all ages, all genders
    • pauline wrote:

      Just a few points:

      Abortion has been legal since the 1970's but it had always been illegal before that.
      So what? Blasphemy has been a crime for thousands of years. Does that mean we should still condemn it?

      Regarding a human being: a common definition is based on the existence of a conscience, self-awareness, not by chromosomic assemblage alone. Else, you would not admit removing your appendix or a teeth because 'its cells has human chromosomes'. It irks me that you push it as 'scientific fact' - it is not, by a very wide margin.

      You didn't say "show compassion to women who were raped". You said "*especially* when they've been sexuallt assaulted". Meaning you always show compassion to women with unwanted pregnancy. That's, imho, digusting. It is 19th century view of women: we must feel empathy for them, but sorry, we have to deny them basic freedom.

      I also was not saying having freedom and justice would prevent raping to happen, or that there were no insane people that showed no intelligence or ethics. I just said that women must be given freedom and justice. Something you keep denying them, by denying them freedom of choice. Tell me how exactly denying abortion rights is promoting freedom of women?
    • New

      if you take religious beliefs and religious morals and ethics out of it (because I'm not religious) it's a question of whether you prioritise the rights of a fully developed capable woman who is above the age of responsibility and has the will do make choices that impact her own life, or prioritise the rights of an officially undocumented, unborn individual who has below the age of responsibility (as he or she does not have an age yet).

      In my opinion is completely a black or white debate because undermining the rights of the individual is the largest factor, and has been the same issue that numerous activists and revolutionary icons have stood to defend in the past and present. How this is any different from taking certain rights away from any group specific to their gender, race or political ideology is beknownst to me.
    • New

      Benni90er wrote:

      ...And Pauline, you stated some facts, most are true...


      ...And in case of a sexually assaulted female, i am absolutely fine with them aborting the child. It takes months before the child is born and ready for adoption. In this time she would suffer...
      What do you think isn't true?

      If a sexually assaulted female receives medical attention within three days after the assault, conception won't take place. (It takes 3-5 days for the sperm to meet up with an ovum.)

      The only time that I can see a pregnancy resulting from rape is if a woman is held against her will for days and sexually assaulted. Fortunately that rarely happens (hopefully). And as much as I wouldn't want any woman to suffer, if abortion was legal in cases of rape, there would be a lot of men falsely accused of rape.

      Girls in school should be taught about incest (with age appropriateness) so if a girl is sexually assaulted (and she's of a child-bearing age), she could tell a teacher, school counselor, etc. and the perpetrator can be arrested the first time he molests her. She can then get medical attention so a pregnancy can't take place.
    • New

      pauline wrote:

      Benni90er wrote:

      ...And Pauline, you stated some facts, most are true...


      ...And in case of a sexually assaulted female, i am absolutely fine with them aborting the child. It takes months before the child is born and ready for adoption. In this time she would suffer...
      What do you think isn't true?
      If a sexually assaulted female receives medical attention within three days after the assault, conception won't take place. (It takes 3-5 days for the sperm to meet up with an ovum.)

      The only time that I can see a pregnancy resulting from rape is if a woman is held against her will for days and sexually assaulted. Fortunately that rarely happens (hopefully). And as much as I wouldn't want any woman to suffer, if abortion was legal in cases of rape, there would be a lot of men falsely accused of rape.

      Girls in school should be taught about incest (with age appropriateness) so if a girl is sexually assaulted (and she's of a child-bearing age), she could tell a teacher, school counselor, etc. and the perpetrator can be arrested the first time he molests her. She can then get medical attention so a pregnancy can't take place.
      You say it's a medical fact that directly after an impregnation the cells are considered as a person and therefor have the right to live. That isn't a fact, that's your opinion. There are still debates in society, law and in the field of medicine on what point those cells are considered a child.

      And unfortunately, and i am really sad about this, there are more raped women getting pregnant then you seem to think. Many ( i can not say if most) raped women don't talk about what happened to them. They feel ashamed and suffer unimaginable inner pain. Some won't function for days, or they only do that: function, but without emotions. Many don't go to the doctor to get treatment, because they are ashamed or even scared that the raper find out and hurt them even more. It's tragic, but this is what happens in many cases.

      Society has to change. You are right, we should tell everybody that's totally fine to stand up and talk about a rape, so the victims can get help and the raper goes to prison. But that takes time. When i was at school, it was still "not cool" to tell a teacher when someone did something wrong.
      curious open-minded short but not so short guy from Germany. open for conversations/PMs, all topics, all ages, all genders
    • New

      dolphinsword wrote:

      pauline wrote:

      Just a few points:

      Abortion has been legal since the 1970's but it had always been illegal before that.
      So what? Blasphemy has been a crime for thousands of years. Does that mean we should still condemn it?
      I was responding to what larissa said when she said:

      larissa wrote:

      ...I’m appalled that the question of making abortion illegal even came up...
      You don't think blasphemy should be condemned?!


      dolphinsword wrote:

      Regarding a human being: a common definition is based on the existence of a conscience, self-awareness, not by chromosomic assemblage alone. Else, you would not admit removing your appendix or a teeth because 'its cells has human chromosomes'. It irks me that you push it as 'scientific fact' - it is not, by a very wide margin.
      A "common definition" of something doesn't necessarily mean it is scientifically, morally or ethically correct.

      Human life does begin at conception. If you disagree with this statement, talk to my high school biology teacher (who taught us this), the writers at NOVA (the PBS series) who confirmed it, and Princeton University who says the same:
      princeton.edu/~prolife/articles/embryoquotes2.html It would be great if performing an abortion wasn't the killing of a human being. But we can't, in all honesty, deny the facts.

      Regarding the existence of a conscience (did you mean conscious?) and self-awareness: if a patient is in a coma, for example, he/she isn't "self-aware", isn't conscious, and doesn't have a sense of right and wrong (a conscience) in that moment but he/she is still a living human being (and we're talking about what is the definition of a human being).

      Your bodily organs aren't a separate human being, with their own DNA. A fetus or an embryo is a separate human being with his/her own separate DNA.


      pauline wrote:

      I think we need to be mindful to treat women with compassion, especially when they say they've been sexually assaulted.
      I stand by what I said. The world would be a better place if more people had compassion towards others. Unfortunately, there are too many selfish individuals who just look out for themselves and F everybody else.

      Sometimes we make mistakes, sometimes accidents happen (such as a defective condom, the birth control pill doesn't work, etc.) which can result in an unwanted/unplanned pregnancy. Understanding that is showing compassion. Allowing a human being to stay alive after a mistake, accident, etc. takes place is showing compassion to that individual.


      dolphinsword wrote:

      ... It is 19th century view of women: we must feel empathy for them, but sorry, we have to deny them basic freedom.
      I also was not saying having freedom and justice would prevent raping to happen, or that there were no insane people that showed no intelligence or ethics. I just said that women must be given freedom and justice. Something you keep denying them, by denying them freedom of choice. Tell me how exactly denying abortion rights is promoting freedom of women?
      19th century women (at least in the U.S.) weren't shown a lot of compassion. And they didn't have a lot of freedoms, either.

      Basic freedoms include life. It shouldn't include killing someone else.

      We don't have the freedom to choose whether or not to kill an adult (a human being), for example, because killing a human being is murder. (And we've already established that an embryo and a fetus are human beings). Therefore, we shouldn't have the freedom to choose to kill an embryo or a fetus either - because it's also murder.

      How is killing an innocent unborn human being "justice"?

      Denying abortion rights is promoting freedom of life for (unborn) females (and males).
    • New

      pauline wrote:

      princeton.edu/~prolife/articles/embryoquotes2.html

      The link you shared with us is just an collection of quotes, and most of them even state that "development of human" begins with fertilization. They are not talking about it being a human with rights.

      Also you seem to value the life of an unborn human more then the life of the woman it's inside. You say you show compassion for victims of rape. But if you deny them to abort after they got raped, you act against their feelings. Some may want to keep the future child, some will suffer if they are forced to keep it.
      curious open-minded short but not so short guy from Germany. open for conversations/PMs, all topics, all ages, all genders
    • New

      Benni90er wrote:

      pauline wrote:

      princeton.edu/~prolife/articles/embryoquotes2.html
      The link you shared with us is just an collection of quotes, and most of them even state that "development of human" begins with fertilization. They are not talking about it being a human with rights.

      Also you seem to value the life of an unborn human more then the life of the woman it's inside. You say you show compassion for victims of rape. But if you deny them to abort after they got raped, you act against their feelings. Some may want to keep the future child, some will suffer if they are forced to keep it.
      "Just" the collection of quotes are taken from; a medical dictionary, an encyclopedia, medical textbooks, and reports from learned individuals such as those from the National Bioethics Advisory Commission and the NIH Human Embryo Research Panel. I don't think that they, my high school biology textbook, my teachers, etc. are all wrong.
      I only know what I've been taught - I'm not a doctor nor a scientist. If you think all these people are incorrect, I recommend you speak with them. They say it is a medical/scientific fact (not their opinion) that human life begins at impregnation/fertilization/conception.

      Yes, the development of a human being begins at/with fertilization. After fertilization/conception takes place, there is a living human being present. Human beings should have human rights. We aren't living in Nazi Germany.

      I haven't mentioned anything about denying a woman an abortion if her life is in danger. In this circumstance, the woman's body/her life is involved and she should decide which course of action to take.

      If procedures are in place so that a woman feels comfortable getting medical attention (within the first three days) after a sexual assault, she won't get pregnant.

      Again, no one is demanding that a rape victim (who, for example, was held hostage and couldn't get medical attention - and became pregnant) keep her son/daughter after he/she is born. There are many childless couples who would gladly adopt her newborn baby.

      Yes, I wouldn't wish for any woman to go through the anguish of having to carry her rapist's child for nine months. But what is worse: acting against someone's "feelings" or acting against someone's life (in other words, killing that someone).


      Benni90er wrote:

      You say it's a medical fact that directly after an impregnation the cells are considered as a person and therefor have the right to live. That isn't a fact, that's your opinion. There are still debates in society, law and in the field of medicine on what point those cells are considered a child.
      And unfortunately, and i am really sad about this, there are more raped women getting pregnant then you seem to think. Many ( i can not say if most) raped women don't talk about what happened to them. They feel ashamed and suffer unimaginable inner pain. Some won't function for days, or they only do that: function, but without emotions. Many don't go to the doctor to get treatment, because they are ashamed or even scared that the raper find out and hurt them even more. It's tragic, but this is what happens in many cases.

      Society has to change. You are right, we should tell everybody that's totally fine to stand up and talk about a rape, so the victims can get help and the raper goes to prison. But that takes time. When i was at school, it was still "not cool" to tell a teacher when someone did something wrong.
      You're not a woman so I don't expect you to know this, but it is a medical fact (not my opinion) that a 46 chromosomes cell aka a fertilized ovum, located within a woman's Fallopian tubes or her uterus, is a separate human being - with separate/different DNA than the woman.

      An individual (after conception) is a human being, usually referred to as an embryo or a fetus. A "child" can be loosely referred to any offspring from conception (she was with child) to 18 years of age, but more specifically to an individual older than a toddler and younger than a teenager.

      You don't know what I think. Please don't presume otherwise.
      And I think it's fairly safe to say that I understand what a woman (who has been raped) goes through, more than you.

      I know that there are too many raped women who get pregnant. That's why it's so important to implement procedures so that a rape victim is treated with compassion, understanding, etc. - instead of being made to feel that it's "her fault", she's to blame, "she asked for it", etc. That way, a woman can feel comfortable going to an emergency room, a doctor's office, the police, a school nurse, etc., talking privately and getting the medical care she needs so she doesn't become pregnant - so she won't have to get an abortion, which is the topic of this thread.

      I never said "we should tell everybody that{ it}'s totally fine to stand up and talk about a rape".
      And it shouldn't have to "take time" - women have been raped since the beginning of mankind!


      Everyone is entitled to their opinion but the fact remains that human life begins at conception (which is why I posted on this thread. But I won't be reading future posts or commenting further on this thread. My lack of response won't indicate that I necessarily agree with what is written in any future posts nor that what is written is necessarily correct.)
      If someone is of the opinion that it is acceptable to kill a human life (in, for example, cases of abortion on demand), that's a separate issue.
    • New

      pauline wrote:

      You're not a woman so I don't expect you to know this, but it is a medical fact (not my opinion) that a 46 chromosomes cell aka a fertilized ovum, located within a woman's Fallopian tubes or her uterus, is a separate human being - with separate/different DNA than the woman.
      That sounds sexist. I once learned too how reproduction works. Both men and women can pick up books and read them.

      pauline wrote:

      And I think it's fairly safe to say that I understand what a woman (who has been raped) goes through, more than you.
      Why? Because there are no men getting raped? There are. And what i can imagine that we would add a burden to the already suffering victims if we force them to carry the child out.

      For me there is no difference in killing someone or hurting them mentally so much they develop a personality disorder. Both destroy the life of human being. So for me the question is: what life to value more: an unborn or a born life? I prefer the born one. Would be great to save both, sure. But that, unfortunately, isn't attainable every time.

      And yes pauline, you are also entitled to have your opinion. I just told you mine and we got in a discussion and found out we can't agree at this topic. So yeah, i think there is no further reason for us to reply to this thread.
      curious open-minded short but not so short guy from Germany. open for conversations/PMs, all topics, all ages, all genders