Immigrants

xNerRadx · Jun 4th 2010, 9:04pm

With the recent immigration drama, it's got me thinking. What's been irritating me is, we're trying to pass laws on immigration, but yet we have immigrates protesting against it. What the fuck do they have to do with the laws in OUR country? They have no say in anything we do. If the U.S. doesn't want Mexican citizens moving here, we don't want you here. Stay in your own damn country. I don't understand why Mexicans are so desperate to move here in the first place.

Not to mention, the world is going through tough times right now; people are losing there jobs. And now it's even harder to find a new job because we've got immigrants taking positions. What do you think about the issue?

BattleForTheSun · Jun 4th 2010, 9:17pm

It's exactly the same situation in Africa. These Nigerians and Zimbabweans are jumping the fence to get work and stuff because their own countrys' economy is in shambles. They are being exploited and hired for as little as 1/4 of the normal pay for jobs. But all they want is a better life, so I can't really be too judgmental about it. Wouldn't you want a better life as well if your country hit the dirt?

Tanner · Jun 4th 2010, 10:02pm

well, since the U.S is made of immigrants..

Dexter. · Jun 4th 2010, 10:14pm

Stay in your own damn country.

Lets reminisce on the history of the US of A.

[ame='http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLzo9pOXa-s']YouTube- Broadcast Yourself.[/ame]

xNerRadx · Jun 4th 2010, 10:29pm

amando96 wrote:

Lets reminisce on the history of the US of A.

YouTube- Broadcast Yourself.

That's true. But the Europeans also went and started their OWN damn country (even though they stole Native American land in the process). If the Mexican immigrants aren't happy, why don't they go somewhere else. Why the U.S.? What makes them think, they have a say in what we can and cannot do as a nation. They aren't citizens of this country so they should mind there own business.

Dexter. · Jun 4th 2010, 10:44pm

Hmm let me think, mexico is fairly close to the US? you can only go so far inside a trunk of a car.

Esmo · Jun 4th 2010, 11:14pm

You seem to have got overly hot and bothered about immigrants protesting. That essentially equates to shouting an awful lot outside town halls in what I'd expect would be broken English, yet you dress it up as some sort of insidious mass subversion of how the USA is run. You've rightly pointed out that they're not citizens, and so their powers are curtailed so that they don't have any real political power - you have nothing to 'fear', or to get angry about.

Seeing as we've started a historical blame game, I would deem the European aggressive takeover of the Native Americans' homeland to be far more criminal and reprehensible than immigrants who protest peacefully against the powers that be where they settle.

Suggesting that they go somewhere else is just silly and, if immigration was a problem, would be a very shallow and short-term solution to it.

EliseBell · Jun 4th 2010, 11:28pm

xNerRadx wrote:

With the recent immigration drama, it's got me thinking. What's been irritating me is, we're trying to pass laws on immigration, but yet we have immigrates protesting against it. What the fuck do they have to do with the laws in OUR country? They have no say in anything we do. If the U.S. doesn't want Mexican citizens moving here, we don't want you here. Stay in your own damn country. I don't understand why Mexicans are so desperate to move here in the first place.

Not to mention, the world is going through tough times right now; people are losing there jobs. And now it's even harder to find a new job because we've got immigrants taking positions. What do you think about the issue?

Well first, not only immigrants are protesting. Sane people everywhere are and hispanic citizens of the United States don't want to be racially profiled. The new law in Arizona is ridiculous. It allows for police and government to check anyone they think might be an illegal immigrant without any other crime or reason. So you are thinking so what? But they are saying they aren't racially profiling. Ummm well who do you think they are going to stop to see if they are here without proper papers?

I mean they are Definitely going to stop me! I'm white with naturally light blonde hair and icy blue eyes. Where the heck would they think I'm from? Switzerland? Have you ever heard of a raid done to deport those evil Swiss immigrants?

Yes well, me either. So they will be stopping hispanic people. They can literally stand on a street corner and ask to see your ID. It's like... Driving while black used to be in LA. If you are unfamiliar, I'll let JayZ tell you:
The year's '94 and my trunk is raw
In my rear view mirror is the mother fuckin' law
I got two choices y'all pull over the car or (hmmm)
Bounce on the double put the pedal to the floor
Now I ain't tryin' to see no highway chase with Jay.
Plus i got a few dollars i can fight the case
So I...pull over to the side of the road
I heard "Son do you know why I'm stoppin' you for?"
Cause I'm young and I'm black and my hats real low?
Do I look like a mind reader sir, I don't know
Am I under arrest or should I guess some mo'?
"Well you was doin fifty-five in a fifty-fo' "
"Liscense and registration and step out of the car"
"Are you carryin' a weapon on you I know a lot of you are"
I ain't steppin out of shit all my paper's legit
"Well, do you mind if I look round the car a little bit?"
Well my glove compartment is locked so are the trunk in the back
And I know my rights so you gon' need a warrant for that
"Aren't you sharp as a tack, you some type of lawyer or something'?"
"Or somebody important or somethin'?"
Nah, I ain't pass the bar but i know a little bit
Enough that you won't illegally search my shit
"We'll see how smart you are when the K9 come"
I got 99 problems but a bitch ain't one

Except, hispanics in Arizona can no longer say "that's an illegal search"

So that is what they are protesting. There are already laws in place and they should have been making an effort enforcing them instead of this ridiculous crap.

I could walk to Mexico from my house in 30 minutes by the way. 74% of my city is hispanic. I'm glad Texas didn't pass that. (we have our idiocies elsewhere, like lubbock)

As far as jobs go, you are wrong. It's a complete misconception and myth. Immigrants work in the places no Americans will. We complain so much about not getting jobs but somehow i doubt they are willing to travel around during harvest and pick tomatoes for a while then move on to the next town uprooting their families at every stop. Every company must make an effort to hire citizens first and foremost. People can get work visas here through companies but they are only granted if it is in a field where we just can't get anyone from here. You ever wanted to clean out chicken coups? Slaughter and cut up livestock? Where do you think McDonalds gets it's burgers?
Americans want to eat the burger not slaughter and process it before putting it between a bun and chewing. We have created the demand, all they are doing now is supplying. Think about it.

xNerRadx · Jun 5th 2010, 1:18am

EliseBell wrote:

Well first, not only immigrants are protesting. Sane people everywhere are and hispanic citizens of the United States don't want to be racially profiled. The new law in Arizona is ridiculous. It allows for police and government to check anyone they think might be an illegal immigrant without any other crime or reason. So you are thinking so what? But they are saying they aren't racially profiling. Ummm well who do you think they are going to stop to see if they are here without proper papers?

I mean they are Definitely going to stop me! I'm white with naturally light blonde hair and icy blue eyes. Where the heck would they think I'm from? Switzerland? Have you ever heard of a raid done to deport those evil Swiss immigrants?

I see where you're coming from. It is pretty wrong to go around and question EVERY hispanic. But even then, I doubt they're gonna just go around questioning random hispanics. They'll probably be on the look out for big trigger characteristics. Like something suspicious. That doesn't make it right, but it's still not like their going on a rampage.

EliseBell wrote:

As far as jobs go, you are wrong. It's a complete misconception and myth. Immigrants work in the places no Americans will. We complain so much about not getting jobs but somehow i doubt they are willing to travel around during harvest and pick tomatoes for a while then move on to the next town uprooting their families at every stop. Every company must make an effort to hire citizens first and foremost. People can get work visas here through companies but they are only granted if it is in a field where we just can't get anyone from here. You ever wanted to clean out chicken coups? Slaughter and cut up livestock? Where do you think McDonalds gets it's burgers?
Americans want to eat the burger not slaughter and process it before putting it between a bun and chewing. We have created the demand, all they are doing now is supplying. Think about it.

2 years I might have said the same thing, but like I've said, times are hard right now. There are people who would take any job at this point.

DeaExMachina · Jun 5th 2010, 2:22am

Talk of the "new law in Arizona" is stupid and anyone who complains about it from sound bites and news from people who want to stir up racial animosity need to back off and go read it for themselves, the damn thing is a Federal Law that has been existed for ages and the only reason Arizona is putting it into State law is so they can expand the power of their State officers and take the burden off Federal law enforcement. Dear gods whenever I sit down with my friends from LBPD and SHPD and talk about the utter crap over the ignorant public and their lack of understanding with anything we always get into an argument over the merits of any form of democracy.

Anyways, as to the discussion at hand I've felt for a long time we need to finish the construction of a proper and authentic border wall with Mexico. It would save the lives of the ICE, INS and border patrol agents who are killed by scum runners (both the immigrant and drug variety) that you so rarely hear about on the news nation wide. We need to cap illegal immigration, its bad for the economy and I'm not talking about the "They take our jobs" I'm talking about all the services and tax dollars that go out to them for taxes that are collected from only a few of them; education for their children, medical expenses and in California they can get on several disability plans (mental is easy for free money here) and monetary relief programs not to mention all of the crime that is created as a result of illegal immigration.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against immigration and its important for this nation especially with declining birth rates. I feel that we should drastically increase the size of the State Department so they can handle more immigration and pass out more visas but this is all legal. It means we can track them, it means we can handle them, it means we can collect taxes from all of them and there is benefit to our society for having them. Illegal immigrants are illegal, they're law breakers who hurt our economy in many ways. We need to control it.

JC · Jun 5th 2010, 5:50am

DeaExMachina wrote:

Talk of the "new law in Arizona" is stupid and anyone who complains about it from sound bites and news from people who want to stir up racial animosity need to back off and go read it for themselves, the damn thing is a Federal Law that has been existed for ages and the only reason Arizona is putting it into State law is so they can expand the power of their State officers and take the burden off Federal law enforcement. Dear gods whenever I sit down with my friends from LBPD and SHPD and talk about the utter crap over the ignorant public and their lack of understanding with anything we always get into an argument over the merits of any form of democracy.

Anyways, as to the discussion at hand I've felt for a long time we need to finish the construction of a proper and authentic border wall with Mexico. It would save the lives of the ICE, INS and border patrol agents who are killed by scum runners (both the immigrant and drug variety) that you so rarely hear about on the news nation wide. We need to cap illegal immigration, its bad for the economy and I'm not talking about the "They take our jobs" I'm talking about all the services and tax dollars that go out to them for taxes that are collected from only a few of them; education for their children, medical expenses and in California they can get on several disability plans (mental is easy for free money here) and monetary relief programs not to mention all of the crime that is created as a result of illegal immigration.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against immigration and its important for this nation especially with declining birth rates. I feel that we should drastically increase the size of the State Department so they can handle more immigration and pass out more visas but this is all legal. It means we can track them, it means we can handle them, it means we can collect taxes from all of them and there is benefit to our society for having them. Illegal immigrants are illegal, they're law breakers who hurt our economy in many ways. We need to control it.

The reason immigrants are illegal most of the time is because you guys won't give visas to people that are not at least somewhat economically successful. The requirements to get a TOURIST visa are not something that everybody has in Mexico.

I can't believe you are saying that ALL crime comes from illegal immigrants, you know that is BS.
Like I have said before in some other thread, the great majority of the immigrants that cross over to the USA take jobs that you would never take and work very hard to maintain their family.
A lot of them send their freaking pay check back to their families in Mexico and do not commit any kind of crimes because they are very scared of getting caught by the border patrol and getting deported back to Mexico.

I do agree with you that there are some people that cross over with all the intention of committing crimes like drug smuggling and stuff.
But guess what? The reason they smuggle drugs is that there is a market for them in USA.

I also agree with you that if you live in USA and get benefits you should pay taxes.
But lots of people don't get squat.

EDIT: Read article.
Not so pissed about illegal immigration anymore right?
thefastertimes.com/bignews/201…fe-and-good-for-business/

Frosty · Jun 5th 2010, 6:05am

xNerRadx wrote:

With the recent immigration drama, it's got me thinking. What's been irritating me is, we're trying to pass laws on immigration, but yet we have immigrates protesting against it. What the fuck do they have to do with the laws in OUR country? They have no say in anything we do. If the U.S. doesn't want Mexican citizens moving here, we don't want you here. Stay in your own damn country.

Right, so if the government legally defines your rights away you thereby get no say in government infringements upon your rights?

xNerRadx wrote:

Not to mention, the world is going through tough times right now; people are losing there jobs. And now it's even harder to find a new job because we've got immigrants taking positions. What do you think about the issue?

Lump of labour fallacy.

DeaExMachina wrote:

Anyways, as to the discussion at hand I've felt for a long time we need to finish the construction of a proper and authentic border wall with Mexico. It would save the lives of the ICE, INS and border patrol agents who are killed by scum runners (both the immigrant and drug variety) that you so rarely hear about on the news nation wide.

Oh boo fucking hoo. So someone is finally retaliating against the violence of federal agents with their own violence? How about the government stop the violence in the first place by ending the war on drugs and immigrants as opposed to expropriating money from taxpayers to build a massive, unnecessary wall?

DeaExMachina wrote:

We need to cap illegal immigration, its bad for the economy and I'm not talking about the "They take our jobs" I'm talking about all the services and tax dollars that go out to them for taxes that are collected from only a few of them; education for their children, medical expenses and in California they can get on several disability plans (mental is easy for free money here) and monetary relief programs

Right, go ahead and blame the problems of the welfare state on illegals.

DeaExMachina wrote:

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against immigration and its important for this nation especially with declining birth rates. I feel that we should drastically increase the size of the State Department so they can handle more immigration and pass out more visas but this is all legal.

>Implying immigration is cappped by labour constraints in the federal government as opposed to arbitrary caps.

DeaExMachina wrote:

It means we can track them, it means we can handle them, it means we can collect taxes from all of them

Well we'd better get cracking then, can't risk someone avoid surveilence and theft from the federal government can we?

DeaExMachina wrote:

Illegal immigrants are illegal, they're law breakers

So what? Claiming something is wrong due to illegality missed the point of why things are illegal in the first place (or atleast should be).

DeaExMachina wrote:

who hurt our economy in many ways.

No, the out of control spending machines you Americans call governments are hurting your economy. Illegals just get caught up in it.

xyz123456 · Jun 5th 2010, 7:05am

xNerRadx wrote:

With the recent immigration drama, it's got me thinking. What's been irritating me is, we're trying to pass laws on immigration, but yet we have immigrates protesting against it. What the fuck do they have to do with the laws in OUR country? They have no say in anything we do. If the U.S. doesn't want Mexican citizens moving here, we don't want you here. Stay in your own damn country. I don't understand why Mexicans are so desperate to move here in the first place.

Not to mention, the world is going through tough times right now; people are losing there jobs. And now it's even harder to find a new job because we've got immigrants taking positions. What do you think about the issue?

Because welfare.

It's as simple as that. People don't seem to realise that welfare is harmful to the economy because it encourages the populace to stay out of work. It isn't that there aren't any jobs available, it's that most Americans would rather stay home and sit on their asses in front of the television while collecting government handouts, i.e., food stamps, WIC, Social Security, etc. (And by the way, let's not turn this into a moral argument about "providing for the less fortunate", because we all know that abuse of the system is rampant, and there are many, many unscrupulous individuals collecting welfare who don't actually need it.)

The Mexicans are simply getting the jobs that Americans decided they didn't want. When available jobs do start to dwindle, Americans become racist and xenophobic and start blaming the Mexicans for all of the problems, even going so far as to spend billions of taxpayer's dollars building a giant border wall. Does anyone not see how pathetic this is? First, the government wastes taxpayer's money on welfare, and then they proceed to waste even more taxpayer's money on an unnecessary "solution" to a "problem" that they themselves caused.

So there you have it. Unfortunately I don't think any US welfare programs are going away, so we should actually be glad the Mexicans are working and contributing to the economy in some way, because somebody has to do it.

xNerRadx · Jun 5th 2010, 6:31pm

Here we go again :rolleyes:. Yes, I am very pretentious. And I do love my commas:wink:!

Jarndyce · Jun 6th 2010, 4:49am

I saw a fair bit about the contentious new laws on Australian news services. I originally took the position that provided the laws were not made with the intention of being carried out racistly (as the government ministers interviewed professed was the case) they were fine.
A week or so later I heard that they also passed a law that demanded Obama relinquish his birth certificate to them to prove he was American born before his name could be put on any ballots. That one is so obviously racist, not to mention pointless legislation, it rather woke me up as to how racist the state was.
Oddly I have not heard about this giant wall? Perhaps I missed the news coverage on it. I'm guessing that the oil spill has been the best thing that could happen for the controversy over these laws though, everyone has something to get upset over and can go around blaming people who were not responsible or at fault, so these laws are less loudly declaimed than might otherwise be the case.

juststayblunted · Jun 6th 2010, 5:55am

we should make it easier to be legal they wouldnt be here legally if they could

DeaExMachina · Jun 6th 2010, 5:59am

Wow, nice and thank you for the scape goater calling me a racist the negative rep on my last post, I applaud for you your utter and complete lack of intelligence.

Jarndyce wrote:

I heard that they [Arizona] also passed a law that demanded Obama relinquish his birth certificate to them to prove he was American born before his name could be put on any ballots. That one is so obviously racist, not to mention pointless legislation, it rather woke me up as to how racist the state was.

It isn't racist. Article II of the US Constitution requires that the President be a natural born citizen and there was a lot of contention over this; though obviously hasn't been any big issue since last year. The Founding Fathers had wanted to protect the nation from foreign powers or foreign cultures subverting the nation and this does not delegate anything racial.

As far as the Wall thing, there already exists a "wall" which is really more of a fence and you can pretty much step over it in on some parts of the border. People want to make it a proper wall to keep smugglers and terrorists out, its really very easy to enter the border.

Trigger93 wrote:

I can't believe you are saying that ALL crime comes from illegal immigrants, you know that is BS.

A lot of them send their freaking pay check back to their families in Mexico and do not commit any kind of crimes because they are very scared of getting caught by the border patrol and getting deported back to Mexico.

EDIT: Read article.
Not so pissed about illegal immigration anymore right?
Connecting The Dots On The Arizona Immigration Law, Fences, Boycotts and the Border | Big News

I didn't say all crime comes from illegal immigrants, you're misrepresenting a list of economic hardships that come from illegal immigration. Illegal immigration causes crime and its well known and acknowledged fact, but only a fool takes this and turns it into an attack or someone by attempting to imply they think all crime stems from immigration.

Illegal immigrants are less likely to get jobs, many of them can't even speak English before they come here and the rightful fear of INS agents causes them to seek other means to support themselves. Many fall into situations where they are taken advantage of through under the table poor paying jobs with bad working conditions but that is what happens to the lucky ones, the unlucky ones fall to the criminal behavior of others forced into prostitution, extorted or forced into gang and/or drug smuggling activities.

Not all crime comes from illegals and not all illegals cause more crime than their initial trespass, however a substantial amount of them directly cause or are the victims and sustainers of further crime.

An illegal coming in and not paying income taxes or any other form of taxes and sending their money back home just further weakens our economy, that isn't any sort of defense for illegals so you'll need to try harder.

Sure I'm not going to disagree they take a lot of the jobs most people wouldn't want (not that there aren't people who don't want them and my father whose a construction worker and saw his pay check cut in half as illegal immigration increased will attest to that) but that doesn't mean allowing them to become the succulent ducks of greedy businessmen is a good excuse for it.

Frosty wrote:

>Implying immigration is cappped by labour constraints in the federal government as opposed to arbitrary caps.

Frosty, the first part of your "points" aren't even worth mentioning especially that we shouldn't care that the men and women who put their lives on the line every day to help this country die. Since you've only brought up one thing that actually needs addressing it I shall address it and you can leave your childish and unintelligible whining at the door.

The US State Department handles all citizenship and visa application. The amount of citizens we naturalize and visas we hand our is directly proportionate to the amount of back ground checks, interviews and thus personnel and money available to the State Department. Post September 11th this Department became far more strict on their visa rules and as a result more personnel is needed to accommodate the numerous applications they receive every year. We can't just let anyone into the country, that wouldn't fix anything and if we allow someone who can't write their own language, speak English and has the math abilities of a 3rd grader they aren't going to get a job and will only cause themselves and society problems. We need to expand the State Department if we are to expand visas and legal immigration, which is a must, but we do not currently have the resources.

rmg126 wrote:

Because welfare.

I'll agree with you almost entirely. Most certainly entitlement spending is the biggest problem to our nation besides our national debt and both of these will crush the US Economy in the next twenty years (check out the Concord Coalition, they're a not for profit group dedicated to cutting government spending and though I'm a member I fully endorse their activities) there are a wide range of social benefits from these programs. With the major economic collapses of the first decade of the 21st century we'd have seen the Great Depression all over again without the money to support families in need. I was a small business owner for three years before I had to close up shop, after that I'd have starved to death without the support of these programs and I wholly endorse them. The Los Angeles area has seen 20% unemployment rates and with LA going bankrupt within the next 3 fiscal years one of the largest metropolitan areas in the US will be seeing even greater hardships.

We do need major reform to our entitlement programs, however doing away with them won't solve anything.

I'd suggest that anyone who actually wishes to talk part in a political discussion have a sense of decorum, or at least intelligence, this discussion has been filled with children throwing around racist propaganda with little conceptualization of actual economic and legislative principles.

---------- Post added at 09:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:57 PM ----------

juststayblunted wrote:

we should make it easier to be legal they wouldnt be here legally if they could

Jarndyce · Jun 6th 2010, 6:43am

DeaExMachina wrote:

It isn't racist. Article II of the US Constitution requires that the President be a natural born citizen and there was a lot of contention over this; though obviously hasn't been any big issue since last year. The Founding Fathers had wanted to protect the nation from foreign powers or foreign cultures subverting the nation and this does not delegate anything racial.

As far as the Wall thing, there already exists a "wall" which is really more of a fence and you can pretty much step over it in on some parts of the border. People want to make it a proper wall to keep smugglers and terrorists out, its really very easy to enter the border.

I know there is a clause that mentions that, most countries have the same thing. It seems a trifle odd that they would decide to demand proof now, he couldn't have stood as a candidate for his first term if he was not born in the US of A. It looks very much like they're doing this, despite knowing it is unreasonable, because they can get off it with that explanation. If one looks at when they are doing it I just see a stubborn and probably racially motivated law.

Vice · Jun 6th 2010, 9:56am

The only offices in the entire country that require you to be a native born citizen is President and Vice President. That's how Chief Justice Taft was appointed to the Supreme Court.

Frosty · Jun 6th 2010, 1:01pm

DeaExMachina wrote:

Frosty, the first part of your "points" aren't even worth mentioning especially that we shouldn't care that the men and women who put their lives on the line every day to help this country die. Since you've only brought up one thing that actually needs addressing it I shall address it and you can leave your childish and unintelligible whining at the door.

Wow nice copout. And what's wrong with that point? I'm wrong in not feeling sympathy for men who think a badge gives them the right to shoot people crossing an arbitrary border on a map with a certain substance/without certain papers?

DeaExMachina wrote:

The US State Department handles all citizenship and visa application. The amount of citizens we naturalize and visas we hand our is directly proportionate to the amount of back ground checks, interviews and thus personnel and money available to the State Department. Post September 11th this Department became far more strict on their visa rules and as a result more personnel is needed to accommodate the numerous applications they receive every year. We can't just let anyone into the country, that wouldn't fix anything and if we allow someone who can't write their own language, speak English and has the math abilities of a 3rd grader they aren't going to get a job and will only cause themselves and society problems. We need to expand the State Department if we are to expand visas and legal immigration, which is a must, but we do not currently have the resources.

Even if there's no arbitrary number immigration is capped at, and it is capped by these restraints, that's almost as bad. The government really needs extra resources to make sure no terrorists are calmly walking into an immigration department? They need more resources to make sure someone who might want to mow lawns has a certain level of education?

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