France and the Burka:

    • Re: France and the Burka:

      ~ Valentina ~ wrote:

      Basically, the burqa was invented for the women not to be seen by other men than their husbands.
      And if they really want to wear this, fine ! But just not here. I'm not racist or anything, but sometimes, too much is too much...
      I think French government should act like the belgian one : forbidden all the items who hide your face (in public places) : religious or not.


      I feel like that's a stereotype in Non Muslims. Not all Muslim men force/coerce their wives into wearing a burka or women wear a burka solely for reasons such as you have stated - so as not to be looked at by other men. In fact this is, I feel, almost completely incorrect in Western Muslim societies. I've asked my friend about this many times, and she told me that there are portions of Quranic text that tell women that they have to wear veils, not to be submissive to men, but that they have to wear them to show their submission to Allah - their God. She told me that wearing a burka/hijab is essentially a powerful way of showing religious devotion.

      Going off on a tangent here but the issue of using a burka to "disguise" a woman's appearance so they aren't judged for it also goes pretty far. Woman do alot of work to get men to look at them - they work on their physical appearance so as to attract a male to look at them. If you want, you could state that by wearing a burka, the woman is getting around this issue. The man can't stare at her in any way if she is fully covered. It becomes a sort of religious/political statement.


      While I can admit that it might be a security issue, the full time banning of burkas still seems to me absolutely ridiculous.

    • Re: France and the Burka:

      Esmo wrote:

      That would certainly be less islamophobic and therefore less divisive and disagreeable, but there's still a liberty issue.


      I don't see why banning the burka has to be Islamophobic, since Islam doesn't mandate the burka in any way. It is just an Arab cultural thing, which obstructs public security. In fact, in secular Muslim countries like Turkey or Syria, the burka is banned from public.

      If someone can't comply with the French ideals in France, then perhaps they should go back to their own countries, whichever it is. Or perhaps they could go to the United States. France does not claim to be a 'melting pot of cultures', hence it makes no sense to argue that the French have to allow something foreign thats not a part of their culture.

    • Re: France and the Burka:

      Sash wrote:

      I don't see why banning the burka has to be Islamophobic, since Islam doesn't mandate the burka in any way. It is just an Arab cultural thing, which obstructs public security. In fact, in secular Muslim countries like Turkey or Syria, the burka is banned from public.

      Whatever its origins, the burka has now attained religious significance in relation to Islam, especially amongst the young converts who aren't necessarily Arab who make up many of the burka wearers in France.

      Sash wrote:

      If someone can't comply with the French ideals in France, then perhaps they should go back to their own countries, whichever it is. Or perhaps they could go to the United States. France does not claim to be a 'melting pot of cultures', hence it makes no sense to argue that the French have to allow something foreign thats not a part of their culture.

      Well the burka on its own (not the assumption of male control that goes with it) is not itself against French ideals, or to put it more clearly, to ban it would be, in my eyes, against one of the main French precepts that is 'Liberté'.

      As you suggested, the French are more protective over what they see as their national culture than countries such as the USA or even the UK. I'm well aware that my perspective on that point probably comes from someone who is more predisposed to integrate cultures as they are rather than integrate them into a central culture. But I simply think the former method produces a more wonderful environment.
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    • Re: France and the Burka:

      Esmo wrote:


      Well the burka on its own (not the assumption of male control that goes with it) is not itself against French ideals, or to put it more clearly, to ban it would be, in my eyes, against one of the main French precepts that is 'Liberté'.

      The banning of burka does not violate the French precept of liberty, since it does not encroach the fundamental rights of any race, gender or social class.

      Instead, wearing a burka violates two of the three French fundamentals. When wears a hooded religious dress/symbol that 'marks' them as different from everyone the principle of equality (egalite) is violated. Since a sense of brotherhood (or its equivalent - sisterhood) cannot develop between burqa wearers and the mainstream French women (because of the physical barrier imposed by the viel), it also ends up violating fraternite.

      In my personal observations, burqa is almost always coereced on Muslim women from early teenage, until they are either 'conditioned' to accept it as a part of their fate or until they rebel against it. In that way, the burqa is a weapon of oppression.

      Esmo wrote:

      But I simply think the former method produces a more wonderful environment.

      Does it, really? Seeing how Islamic, Christian and Jewish radicalisation is sweeping in Anglo-Saxon countries, I think not.

      The post was edited 2 times, last by Sash ().

    • Re: France and the Burka:

      If this proposal was made by US, I am sure most people would have been commending on how US took the brave step against Islamic extremism. But since this is something the French got first, it becomes vile and Islamophobic. Nothing that comes from a country outside the Anglo-US belt is ever right.

      Think Afghan war and the deja vu comes back. When it was the Soviets fighting against Islamic insurgency in Afghanistan, the US cried "Russian aggression". Now that Americans are doing the very same thing, its "War on Terrorism".

      By banning the burka and other religious symbols, France not only increases its public security, but sends out a clear message that there is no place for religious extremism in France.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Sash ().

    • Re: France and the Burka:

      Aannddyy wrote:

      No government should be able to tell anyone what they can and can't wear. It's a step in a very, very wrong direction.


      Well there is that, then there is the issue of where a cultural impact is being driven by our actions such as what we wear. When we talk about goverment let's separate the rights of a religion versus the rights of a person. The government has to regulate one over the other and while the rights of a person are valuable, a government is based on a body of people. If there is an opposing force, it is the government's role to distance itself away from them. Basically, what Sash has said. The government takes no role for religious extremism.

    • Re: France and the Burka:

      nthdelusion wrote:

      Well there is that, then there is the issue of where a cultural impact is being driven by our actions such as what we wear. When we talk about goverment let's separate the rights of a religion versus the rights of a person. The government has to regulate one over the other and while the rights of a person are valuable, a government is based on a body of people. If there is an opposing force, it is the government's role to distance itself away from them. Basically, what Sash has said. The government takes no role for religious extremism.


      You talk in riddles. You don't have to overcomplicate your posts with unnecessary words.

      The burka bears the same resemblance to a table-cloth; it isn't religious extremism. The only half-legitimate reason behind outlawing the burka would be for security concerns.
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