If only the christians will use their common sense.

Sababah · Jul 20th 2010, 3:37pm

A recurring theme in the old testament is that there is only the one God and He will not tolerate people worshipping other (make-believe) gods. And a grevious punishment awaits the idolators.

And the Qur'an is super clear. There is no god but Allah. Worshipping other (make-believe) gods is the one unforgiveable crime. It says that Jesus was Allah's last prophet to the Jews. He is NOT a god, but a man.

That is said to establish the line in the sand for the jews and muslims, we now turn to the christians New Testament.

The two recurring themes in the 4 gospels are people in the crowd witnessing Jesus heal the sick etc and there is always the odd one who calls out: "Wow, cool. You must be the son of god!" Plus the rabbis and scholars are constantly testing Jesus to trick him to get him to say that he is the son of god. But Jesus outwits them and never says what they want to hear.

In the end it is said in the courtroom that the rabbis say: "Tell us, are you the son of god?" to which the denial comes "You say I am." In frustration the rabbis say "that's close enough, crucify him for the blasphemy of claiming to be god's son."

The rabbis know their Torah - God has no son, crucify whoever utters such a blasphemy against god. The muslims confirm what has always been, there is no god but Allah. Yet the christians are betting their hereafter on a whim. The Old Testament will not tolerate other gods. The Qur'an says the unbelievers are gonna say in the Hellfire; "If only we had listened or used our common sense, we would not be among the companions of the Blaze."

The God of the Torah (OT) both loves AND hates. Its very clear. Allah in the Qur'an expresses very clearly what He loves and what He hates. Yet the christians are off on some fairy trip about a god espousing "unconditional love" for everyone and every sin. But the O.T. and Qur'an don't read that way.

When Jesus was preaching, his theme was love your God and MY God, and obey God's Laws (Sermon on the mount). Whoever dares change them or deny them is in the hellfire. So It's Hellfire for the sinners and unbelievers - that's unconditional love? Then Jesus warned the people "they will see fools worshipping him (Jesus - instead of God) and following the doctrines of men (secularism)".

Then after the "ressurrection" Jesus supposedly REVOKES all he said before as if his teachings were a waste of time and tells his followers at some ressurrection BBQ party "whatever secular laws you make they will override God's Laws" (Matt 18.18). And then a bloke called Paul (who never met Jesus in life) says "Jesus said to tell you to reject god's laws and obey all governments and man-made laws". (Rom 13).

So why are the christians so blind to this totally about face on Jesus teachings? Can't they smell a rat? Especially as the final episode in the Trilogy, the Qur'an, warns the christians they have been fooled by satan and some evil persons and they are blindly accepting the stupid story because the evil in their hearts crave the sins it promotes and espouses.

LuklaAdvocate · Jul 20th 2010, 7:14pm

Sababah wrote:

A recurring theme in the old testament is that there is only the one God and He will not tolerate people worshipping other (make-believe) gods. And a grevious punishment awaits the idolators.

And the Qur'an is super clear. There is no god but Allah. Worshipping other (make-believe) gods is the one unforgiveable crime. It says that Jesus was Allah's last prophet to the Jews. He is NOT a god, but a man.

That is said to establish the line in the sand for the jews and muslims, we now turn to the christians New Testament.

What's your point? That both Jews and Muslims don't accept Jesus as being the son of God? Are you trying to imply that Judaism and Islam are working in tangent against Christianity? Well, I guess Christianity and Judaism also work in tangent against Islam, as both religions deny Muhammad's claim to be a prophet.

Sababah wrote:

The two recurring themes in the 4 gospels are people in the crowd witnessing Jesus heal the sick etc and there is always the odd one who calls out: "Wow, cool. You must be the son of god!" Plus the rabbis and scholars are constantly testing Jesus to trick him to get him to say that he is the son of god. But Jesus outwits them and never says what they want to hear.

Thank you for that overly-simplified, Spark Notes version of the Gospels.

Sababah wrote:

The God of the Torah (OT) both loves AND hates. Its very clear. Allah in the Qur'an expresses very clearly what He loves and what He hates. Yet the christians are off on some fairy trip about a god espousing "unconditional love" for everyone and every sin. But the O.T. and Qur'an don't read that way.

You're right, the O.T. doesn't read that way. Christians base their ideologies off supersessionism, within the New Testament teachings of Jesus. The New Testament is very different from the old. You just spent all that time talking about the New Testament, and now you're ignoring it.

Sababah wrote:

When Jesus was preaching, his theme was love your God and MY God, and obey God's Laws (Sermon on the mount). Whoever dares change them or deny them is in the hellfire. So It's Hellfire for the sinners and unbelievers - that's unconditional love? Then Jesus warned the people "they will see fools worshipping him (Jesus - instead of God) and following the doctrines of men (secularism)".

Contrary to popular belief, there isn't a direct correlation between going to hell due to not believing in God (at least in Christianity). People leave out the "middle-man," being sin in Christian doctrine. It's what disbelieving in God does to your sins that damns you to hell, not, "you don't believe in God; therefore, as punishment, you go to hell."

Also, Biblically, you have some form of free will. Accordingly, it's not God deciding your future, it's you.

Sababah wrote:

Then after the "ressurrection" Jesus supposedly REVOKES all he said before as if his teachings were a waste of time and tells his followers at some ressurrection BBQ party "whatever secular laws you make they will override God's Laws" (Matt 18.18). And then a bloke called Paul (who never met Jesus in life) says "Jesus said to tell you to reject god's laws and obey all governments and man-made laws". (Rom 13).

Uhh, no, that's not what he does. Good try though.

You know, I'm going to be brutally honest with you. I have no idea where in the hell you got that Matthews verse from. Matthew 18:18 has nothing to do with what you just quoted.

Sababah wrote:

So why are the christians so blind to this totally about face on Jesus teachings? Can't they smell a rat? Especially as the final episode in the Trilogy, the Qur'an, warns the christians they have been fooled by satan and some evil persons and they are blindly accepting the stupid story because the evil in their hearts crave the sins it promotes and espouses.

Ooooh, the Qur'an warns Christians, eh? Well, if the Qur'an had been created prior to the Bible, I might give it some leeway. However, since the Bible was created several hundred years before the Qur'an, I'm tempted to believe that they simply put that in Qur'an scripture just to convert Christians to Islam.

alfaspider06 · Jul 20th 2010, 8:05pm

Im really not sure what point you are tying to make here. Are you saying that Judaism and Islam are superior religions? Or are you saying that Christainity is a flawed religion? Because from how I read your post, it seems to me that you are just bitching about a subject that you have an elementary understanding of and trying to make it seem like you know what you are talking about.

Esmo · Jul 20th 2010, 10:34pm

Yeah, not quite sure what the point is you're trying to make. Could you try and condense it and summarise it a bit better?

LuklaAdvocate wrote:

Also, Biblically, you have some form of free will. Accordingly, it's not God deciding your future, it's you. Uhh, no, that's not what he does. Good try though.

It's this contradiction that is partly why I'm not a Christian. What about Ephesians 1?

LuklaAdvocate · Jul 21st 2010, 12:27am

Esmo wrote:

It's this contradiction that is partly why I'm not a Christian. What about Ephesians 1?

Yeah, some verses within Ephesians are what John Calvin used to argue predestination.

To be perfectly honest, we could spend weeks arguing over just one passage within the Bible, since there are so many variables that go within each verse. And also, I think the Bible sort of balances free will and predestination. The Bible obviously teaches that God has certain wills that will be accomplished, which means that somewhere and somehow, God will need to intervene and destine a certain event to complete his will.

As for how I interpret Paul's claim, (note: it's debatable whether or nor Paul wrote Ephesians; new evidence is suggesting that the book may have only been influenced by Paul, not written) I don't see him as saying humans are predestined to believe or disbelieve in Jesus/God. Instead, I see him arguing that Jesus was always predestined to walk the earth, and that it was predestined that heaven would await all those who believe in him. As such, when you believe in God, you are consequently joining what was already predestined. You still, however, decide whether or not you personally believe.

Then again, I could be completely wrong and if God exists, he may very well predestine some to heaven and others to hell. That would sort of fly in the face of God being omnibenevolent though, wouldn't it?

And actually, if predestination is an accurate ideology, one could hold a fascinating discussion about God and genetics, seeing as we're learning more and more about genetics and how they influence (and in some cases, decide) our thoughts and actions.

kopite · Jul 21st 2010, 12:59am

i was thinking the other day about predestination, especially with like judas, he was already chosen (from what ive gathered) to betray jesus, like if he didnt betray him, jesus would not be crucified and therefore he would not have saved our souls (as christains believe) like jesus knew at the last supper that judas was going to betray him, im too tired to find the actual quote from the bible but it goes something like "the person who will betray will be the one whom i love the most" which was judas, so how could judas be condemned to hell, it was his part of the plan to betray him. just has been on my mind since easter!!!!

stormblade85 · Jul 21st 2010, 1:02am

Sababah wrote:

A recurring theme in the old testament is that there is only the one God and He will not tolerate people worshipping other (make-believe) gods. And a grevious punishment awaits the idolators.

And the Qur'an is super clear. There is no god but Allah. Worshipping other (make-believe) gods is the one unforgiveable crime. It says that Jesus was Allah's last prophet to the Jews. He is NOT a god, but a man.

That is said to establish the line in the sand for the jews and muslims, we now turn to the christians New Testament.

The two recurring themes in the 4 gospels are people in the crowd witnessing Jesus heal the sick etc and there is always the odd one who calls out: "Wow, cool. You must be the son of god!" Plus the rabbis and scholars are constantly testing Jesus to trick him to get him to say that he is the son of god. But Jesus outwits them and never says what they want to hear.

In the end it is said in the courtroom that the rabbis say: "Tell us, are you the son of god?" to which the denial comes "You say I am." In frustration the rabbis say "that's close enough, crucify him for the blasphemy of claiming to be god's son."

The rabbis know their Torah - God has no son, crucify whoever utters such a blasphemy against god. The muslims confirm what has always been, there is no god but Allah. Yet the christians are betting their hereafter on a whim. The Old Testament will not tolerate other gods. The Qur'an says the unbelievers are gonna say in the Hellfire; "If only we had listened or used our common sense, we would not be among the companions of the Blaze."

The God of the Torah (OT) both loves AND hates. Its very clear. Allah in the Qur'an expresses very clearly what He loves and what He hates. Yet the christians are off on some fairy trip about a god espousing "unconditional love" for everyone and every sin. But the O.T. and Qur'an don't read that way.

When Jesus was preaching, his theme was love your God and MY God, and obey God's Laws (Sermon on the mount). Whoever dares change them or deny them is in the hellfire. So It's Hellfire for the sinners and unbelievers - that's unconditional love? Then Jesus warned the people "they will see fools worshipping him (Jesus - instead of God) and following the doctrines of men (secularism)".

Then after the "ressurrection" Jesus supposedly REVOKES all he said before as if his teachings were a waste of time and tells his followers at some ressurrection BBQ party "whatever secular laws you make they will override God's Laws" (Matt 18.18). And then a bloke called Paul (who never met Jesus in life) says "Jesus said to tell you to reject god's laws and obey all governments and man-made laws". (Rom 13).

So why are the christians so blind to this totally about face on Jesus teachings? Can't they smell a rat? Especially as the final episode in the Trilogy, the Qur'an, warns the christians they have been fooled by satan and some evil persons and they are blindly accepting the stupid story because the evil in their hearts crave the sins it promotes and espouses.

So what I'm hearing is that you believe Judaism and Islam are superior to Christianity. Is that it? Because both religions have their own flaws that I will not go into at the moment. The Torah does say that there's only one God, and the Qur'an does say that there's no God but Allah (which is God in their language). But the bible also says in the New Testament that God is three-in-one: Father, Son, Holy Spirit. So can't one God be three things at once, considering he does have powers beyond our comprehension?

The New Testament is as historically accurate as the Old Testament, which has been proven over years of study. There in fact was a man named Jesus, and he did perform fantastic miracles, and he was crucified. The claims that he rose from the grave weren't just made by his disciples though...hundreds of people claimed the same exact thing that they saw Jesus, knowing that he had died. How can that many people "hallucinate" the same thing?

Jesus introduced new ideas into the world by taking the OT commandments (which are still the supreme commandments for both Christians and Jews) and giving new interpretations of how they work. Jesus also didn't trick the Rabbi's. He knew about the OT laws as well, and used those same laws against the Rabbi's, who, dumbfounded and stunned by his wisdom, could do nothing else but insult and say that what he said was blasphemy - because back then, the only people who should've known everything were the Rabbi's.

When Jesus said that those who didn't believe were to be tossed into the lake of fire, he was talking about the people who didn't follow his or God's word (those who we call atheists today). It does seem contradictory though: Why love everybody, then send those who don't believe into punishment? Think of it like a parent disciplining his kids. They didn't listen, and so the parent (God) is punishing them. God gave us the free will to either accept or refuse his words, and he loves us unconditionally either way. However, back to the discipline thing, he punishes those children who refuse to obey and listen, much like any good parent would to their child.

Matt. 18:18 says nothing about rejecting God's law (Quote: "I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven). Paul did meet Jesus in a vision when he was called Saul, a former persecutor of Christians. Also, the Romans verse, which you misquoted, says this: "Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except God's authority...Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted." What he's saying here is that man's authority is given to him by God, and if we disobey the authority on earth, we're disobeying God's authority as well.

Satan is tricking us all the time, but to say that Jesus is the trickery being done here is just plain madness. Jesus in history committed no wrong except heal people and share new, albeit radical, ideas to the world. The Muslims and the Jews have different opinions about the OT as we do, and they both believe in Jesus (the difference being that both Jews and Muslims only see him as a prophet, and not the savior). That is all I have to say.

LuklaAdvocate · Jul 21st 2010, 1:12am

kopite wrote:

i was thinking the other day about predestination, especially with like judas, he was already chosen (from what ive gathered) to betray jesus, like if he didnt betray him, jesus would not be crucified and therefore he would not have saved our souls (as christains believe) like jesus knew at the last supper that judas was going to betray him, im too tired to find the actual quote from the bible but it goes something like "the person who will betray will be the one whom i love the most" which was judas, so how could judas be condemned to hell, it was his part of the plan to betray him. just has been on my mind since easter!!!!

Oh there are definitely cases of predestination throughout the Bible, with certain people being chosen for certain tasks, jobs, duties, etc.

While not part of the Biblical cannon, the Gospel of Judas argues that Judas was actually under Jesus' orders when he "betrayed" him, and it was all a part of Jesus' plan.

kopite · Jul 21st 2010, 1:17am

LuklaAdvocate wrote:

Oh there are definitely cases of predestination throughout the Bible, with certain people being chosen for certain tasks, jobs, duties, etc.

While not part of the Biblical cannon, the Gospel of Judas argues that Judas was actually under Jesus' orders when he "betrayed" him, and it was all a part of Jesus' plan.

well like i said, if he didnt betray him, jesus could not fufill his mission on earth!! soo judas really should not be in hell, if he is he got a raw deal out of it!!!

LuklaAdvocate · Jul 21st 2010, 1:26am

stormblade85 wrote:

stormblade85 wrote:

The New Testament is as historically accurate as the Old Testament, which has been proven over years of study.

Which parts of the Old Testament have been proven? Are you suggesting the OT as a whole has been proven accurate, or only parts?

stormblade85 · Jul 21st 2010, 1:35am

LuklaAdvocate wrote:

Which parts of the Old Testament have been proven? Are you suggesting the OT as a whole has been proven accurate, or only parts?

I'm not suggesting that all parts of the OT have been proven, but they have put dates to each of the books. Also, there's evidence suggesting that the Creation story in Genesis has more of an allegorical meaning to it than a literal interpretation that most people believe in. In fact, if you read the first two chapters of Genesis, both give different stories about the creation, and they were both songs back then (for back then stories were told in song). I don't argue that God created the universe out of nothing (hard to believe huh, considering nothing can't come from nothing), but when they say days, I mostly say that days to God could be billions of years to us. God is beyond time, and what we see as years and centuries could be mere seconds to him. I'm not saying that there aren't flaws (anything humans try to do is flawed one way or another), but what I am trying to put out there is that not everything has to be interpreted literally.

JC · Jul 21st 2010, 1:37am

kopite wrote:

well like i said, if he didnt betray him, jesus could not fufill his mission on earth!! soo judas really should not be in hell, if he is he got a raw deal out of it!!!

Maybe Jesus knew he was gonna betray him because of what he saw in him.

I agree with you though Kopite, if Judas was indeed following God's plan for him then why would he be in hell?

LuklaAdvocate · Jul 21st 2010, 2:17am

stormblade85 wrote:

I'm not suggesting that all parts of the OT have been proven, but they have put dates to each of the books.

They've put dates as to when each of the books was written, yes. That doesn't mean the stories within those books are accurate.

Which specific stories line up with history?

stormblade85 wrote:

Also, there's evidence suggesting that the Creation story in Genesis has more of an allegorical meaning to it than a literal interpretation that most people believe in. In fact, if you read the first two chapters of Genesis, both give different stories about the creation, and they were both songs back then (for back then stories were told in song).

It's scientifically impossible for a literal account of the Genesis creation. It should be taken metaphorically.

stormblade85 wrote:

I don't argue that God created the universe out of nothing (hard to believe huh, considering nothing can't come from nothing)

If God created the universe, by definition he would have needed to create it out of nothing. The universe is fundamentally a collection of matter and energy. God can't create the universe out of anything other than "nothing," because if "something" exists, then the universe already exists. Unless of course you bring in a parallel dimension where God dwells, which serves only to complicate things beyond our understanding.

At some point in time, the universe came from nothing; that, or the universe is eternal. If the latter, it never had a creation.

That being said, an omnipotent God would have no trouble whatsoever creating the universe out of nothing.

stormblade85 wrote:

but when they say days, I mostly say that days to God could be billions of years to us.

Actually, the Hebrew word for "day" doesn't relate to our 24 hour day. As such, Genesis never described a 7 day creation.

stormblade85 · Jul 21st 2010, 5:26am

I do agree with you on everything you just said, and I made a few errors when I was typing. I originally meant to say that something came from nothing. Forgive me for not interpreting more clearly. I was rushing myself a bit because I was busy with some other things. But I do agree: something has to come from nothing, because if something did come from something else, then it had to have always existed in the first place. As for the Genesis story, I believe more in the literal translation of it, but in the sense that the seven "days" weren't 24 hour days like these days. However, there are two stories to the creation of the world as I explained before (read Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 if it intrigues you that much).

LuklaAdvocate · Jul 21st 2010, 6:04am

stormblade85 wrote:

I do agree with you on everything you just said, and I made a few errors when I was typing. I originally meant to say that something came from nothing. Forgive me for not interpreting more clearly. I was rushing myself a bit because I was busy with some other things. But I do agree: something has to come from nothing, because if something did come from something else, then it had to have always existed in the first place. As for the Genesis story, I believe more in the literal translation of it, but in the sense that the seven "days" weren't 24 hour days like these days. However, there are two stories to the creation of the world as I explained before (read Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 if it intrigues you that much).

It's still debatable as to whether or not there are two Genesis creation accounts. Some scholars believe there are two, whereas others believe there is only one and the "second" account is an elaboration of the first.

Assuming there are two and if taken from a metaphorical perspective, the first creation account (God created humans, male and female both simultaneously, subsequent his creation of animals), one could argue that this corresponds with the biological view of evolution.

However, from the perspective of astronomy, Genesis is off entirely with its creation account.

stormblade85 · Jul 21st 2010, 6:47am

Well astronomy is a science right? Well in my belief, science (which is a man-made thing) cannot prove or disprove something that is beyond human understanding. God is omnipotent, and science only works with the things that are tangable to the senses. How can you prove something that the senses aren't fine-tuned to understand? I believe in God because he worked on me in a way that my own senses can't even begin to describe. Science cannot prove or disprove that, now can it?

LuklaAdvocate · Jul 21st 2010, 7:05am

stormblade85 wrote:

stormblade85 wrote:

Well astronomy is a science right? Well in my belief, science (which is a man-made thing) cannot prove or disprove something that is beyond human understanding. God is omnipotent, and science only works with the things that are tangable to the senses. How can you prove something that the senses aren't fine-tuned to understand? I believe in God because he worked on me in a way that my own senses can't even begin to describe. Science cannot prove or disprove that, now can it?

Yes, I know God cannot be disproved. I don't see any contradiction with God and science.

Genesis, like science, is also man-made. You can argue that it was inspired by God, which is equally hard to both prove or disprove with absolute certainty, but it is man-made.

However, my issue was with Genesis, not God.

Which came first, earth or the sun? Of all the stars you see when you look up in the night sky, which do you believe came first. Them, or the earth?

Sababah · Jul 26th 2010, 12:53am

Some christians in the forum have expressed confusion in what I wrote. My over all question is: What proof do the christians have to turn away to what Jesus preached?

Here's a condensed re-worded re-cap:

The Sermon on the Mount is considered to be the "Essence of the teachings of Jesus". Here Jesus said words to the effect that:

"If you think about killing it will be recorded as murder against you and punishable on the Day of Judgement."
and;
"If you think naughty thoughts it will be recorded as adultery/sexual crimes against you and punishable on the Day of Judgement."
and
"If you think about stealing it will be recorded as theft against you and punishable on the Day of Judgement."

Question: How do you go from these clear orders to 'Whatever you do or think will be forgiven as long as you believe Jesus is Allah?'

And also Jesus said words to the effect that:

"God's Law is to remain unchanged and no forgiveness to whoever changes even a letter or a dot on letter, let alone deletes any law."

And here's another one: "In vain will they worship me (Jesus- instead of God) and follow the doctrines (Laws-secularism) of Men."

And this: "Many will say to me (Jesus) Oh god, we did everything in your name (Jesus). 'And I (Jesus) will say 'get lost!'. I am innocent of you'.
And this: 'No benefit/reward for those who do my will. Salvation is only for those who do the Will of God.'

Question: How do you go from 'Don't change God's Laws' and 'you must obey God's Laws and don't follow secularism' (said Jesus) to 'We are free of God's Laws and must obey the man-made Laws of Governments' (said Paul)?

As you can see much of christianity is at odds with the teachings of Jesus, Paul never met Jesus he arrived on the scene 10-15 years later and refused to take knowledge from the disciples of Jesus, preferring to learn from Essiene Jews in the desert who nothing, zilch to do with Jesus. (Acts).

Show me your evidence that Jesus teachings from the Sermon on the Mount etc are rejected. If all he said is contrary to Christianity his teachings are pointless. None of the above evidence of today's christians (followers of Paul) would be acceptable in a Court of Law today as far as I can see, so how are you going to survive Judgement Day?

LuklaAdvocate · Jul 26th 2010, 1:30am

Seriously, the anti-Christian preaching is getting old.

Sababah wrote:

Question: How do you go from these clear orders to 'Whatever you do or think will be forgiven as long as you believe Jesus is Allah?'

Why do Christians believe that?

John 11:25
John 3:15
John 3:36
Romans 3:23
Romans 5:8
Romans 10:9-10***

Sababah · Jul 26th 2010, 10:38pm

In Gospel of John it says Jesus says 'You have to believe in me.'

Question: How does 'you have to believe in me' contradict/cancel/reject what he (Jesus) says about religion? Jesus said 'stick to God's Law and keep away from the Doctrines of Men (secularism). It doesn't make sense to believe in Jesus and reject the orders he issued.

Your evidence for rejecting God's Laws and obeying secular governments are all from Paul. Said Jesus: "Don't abandon God's Laws, don't follow secularism, sin is punishable, even thoughts.' Paul never met Jesus nor studied what Jesus preached. Instead he rejected the disciples and took knowledge from Essiene Jews.

Question: Who is Paul to reverse what Jesus ordered? His rules have cancelled Jesus rules. Where are his credentials? What is your evidence to follow him?

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