I am not religion, and I think that the concept that someone can beleive in a god is funny (no offence, my opinion), but I also think that it does good. If it makes people act better, then go ahead. And for those who don't, it's ok too.
Are you religious?
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Is there any evidence that it makes people act better?And your very flesh shall be a great poem.
-Walt Whitman -
ok be that way fuck u
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And your very flesh shall be a great poem.
-Walt Whitman -
Kingthreehead, you talk like someone who really hates religion...why? I mean, did you take history? Didn't Hitler hate it too? And he was an idiot....so....
But I'm not religious either, but alot of my friends, and family are, and I see nothing wrong in personal beleifs...it's called an OPINION! -
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Evilmatic wrote:
Hahaha. Best post I've read yet.
Is that sarcasm? I can't tell with the extremely stupid posts.And your very flesh shall be a great poem.
-Walt Whitman -
I'll let you decide that.
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How gracious of you.And your very flesh shall be a great poem.
-Walt Whitman -
for: godless_musician
Hey, we met in Balletboy's thread.
As you know, I believe in God (The Father, the Son, and the Holly Spirit).
And as response of what you've said, yes, talking/praying to someone/something which doesn't exist is not logical.
But, if I may ask you, could everything in this universe explained by logic?
Sometimes, logic can't explain something.
That's actualy the begining of religions, people need an explaination of the unexplained. (am I right?) -
1. Anything that can be explained can be explained logically. Why not?
2. Even if something couldn't be explained using logic, what makes you think that religion *can* explain it? If logic isn't up to the job, what is? Certainly not faith.
3. Something may be a mystery to you, or may be hard to accept, and so you come up with an explanation that was not arrived at logically. Okay, fine. But why just walk right into a blazing contradiction? Death leads to life. God is the father but he is the son. Jesus is my imaginary friend who exists. Be just but turn the other cheek.
These aren't accusations (I just want a friendly discussion, not a debate like I got into with Saved-by-Grace) but just challenges I want to see if you can answer, or at least for chewing over.And your very flesh shall be a great poem.
-Walt Whitman -
godless_musician wrote:
1. Anything that can be explained can be explained logically. Why not?
2. Even if something couldn't be explained using logic, what makes you think that religion *can* explain it? If logic isn't up to the job, what is? Certainly not faith.
3. Something may be a mystery to you, or may be hard to accept, and so you come up with an explanation that was not arrived at logically. Okay, fine. But why just walk right into a blazing contradiction? Death leads to life. God is the father but he is the son. Jesus is my imaginary friend who exists. Be just but turn the other cheek.
These aren't accusations (I just want a friendly discussion, not a debate like I got into with Saved-by-Grace) but just challenges I want to see if you can answer, or at least for chewing over.
1. Yes, anything that can be explained by logic, should be explained by logic. I agree with you. (Because I believe that God create logic, and He wants human to use it maximaly)
2. What I mean with "things that can't be explained by logic" is like a person who is possesed (their body entered with some kind of spirit or demon or evil), or things like a person who fly when he/she is meditating, or , the most simple, why "time" exist?
3. About death that leads to life, it's buddhist (and maybe other religion) believe. If I use their way of thinking about this case (because my friend is buddhist, so I know more or less), they don't treat human as a machine. A machine, when it's broken or can't be recovered anymore, will be no more than just a machine. But, human has something called "spirit". Their spirit enter a period of judgement, and then they enter a new human embrio.
Second, you said that God is the Father, but also the Son. It's not like that. We, cathiloc people, believe there is 3 spirit of God. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The Bible said so. And please don't treat Bible as a fictional book. It's fact. Alquran and other religion's "hand book" are also based on fact.
And about Jesus as my Imaginary friend, you missunderstood my answer. What I mean is, "Jesus helps us with our need of an Imaginary friend." So, he does exist, but he's like the "unseen existence". So, we can only imagine him. Or, in other word, feel his existence.
Sorry if I did something that insult you. I just want you not to attack everyone's believe. It's hard to believe, you know?
I have no problem If you don't believe in God. As long as you have a good character, it will be better than those who have a religion, but live their life with lots of bad things.:)
And if you don't mind, may I ask you? How old are you? -
YohanesMC wrote:
1. Yes, anything that can be explained by logic, should be explained by logic. I agree with you. (Because I believe that God create logic, and He wants human to use it maximaly)
2. What I mean with "things that can't be explained by logic" is like a person who is possesed (their body entered with some kind of spirit or demon or evil), or things like a person who fly when he/she is meditating, or , the most simple, why "time" exist?
3. About death that leads to life, it's buddhist (and maybe other religion) believe. If I use their way of thinking about this case (because my friend is buddhist, so I know more or less), they don't treat human as a machine. A machine, when it's broken or can't be recovered anymore, will be no more than just a machine. But, human has something called "spirit". Their spirit enter a period of judgement, and then they enter a new human embrio.
Second, you said that God is the Father, but also the Son. It's not like that. We, cathiloc people, believe there is 3 spirit of God. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The Bible said so. And please don't treat Bible as a fictional book. It's fact. Alquran and other religion's "hand book" are also based on fact.
And about Jesus as my Imaginary friend, you missunderstood my answer. What I mean is, "Jesus helps us with our need of an Imaginary friend." So, he does exist, but he's like the "unseen existence". So, we can only imagine him. Or, in other word, feel his existence.
Sorry if I did something that insult you. I just want you not to attack everyone's believe. It's hard to believe, you know?
I have no problem If you don't believe in God. As long as you have a good character, it will be better than those who have a religion, but live their life with lots of bad things.:)
And if you don't mind, may I ask you? How old are you?
1. I more or less agree with you there. The only difference between us there I think is that you see logic as created by God and I see it as existing naturally.
2. Well as for a person being (or appearing) "possessed" why do you say that that can't be explained by logic? Isn't being taken over by demons as causal and logical (whether you agree with it or not) an explanation as... insanity (I don't know) or something to that effect?
Logic doesn't have to mean "the world as we currently understand it." Actually, it's very flexible.
3. As for death leading to life, I was actually thinking of Christianity. Don't you believe (I may be mistaking this) that after a person dies (bodily) they become even more alive (spiritually)?
God is simultaneously three "people", one being the father of another (and another being Caspar... j/k.) How is that logically possible?
Well, I'm sorry to say that I do think the Bible is a fictional book, so I don't consider many things in it to be truth. I mean no offense, but: part of what Christians need to do if they want their beliefs to be respected is to give some kind of justification for them beyond "this is what my holy book says." That is the claim of every other religion and every other holy book since the beginning of religious belief. Most intellectual people, even a lot of Christians, are past thinking a single very old and very apocryphal book proves anything. (That's not to insult you, it was just a general generalization of generalities.
)
And don't worry, I won't feel insulted or offended by anything you say. I know since we have differing beliefs we're both kind of saying in the back of our minds, "That's weird. Why does he think that?"
I'm 16 on Sunday. How about you?And your very flesh shall be a great poem.
-Walt Whitman -
godless_musician wrote:
1. I more or less agree with you there. The only difference between us there I think is that you see logic as created by God and I see it as existing naturally.
2. Well as for a person being (or appearing) "possessed" why do you say that that can't be explained by logic? Isn't being taken over by demons as causal and logical (whether you agree with it or not) an explanation as... insanity (I don't know) or something to that effect?
Logic doesn't have to mean "the world as we currently understand it." Actually, it's very flexible.
3. As for death leading to life, I was actually thinking of Christianity. Don't you believe (I may be mistaking this) that after a person dies (bodily) they become even more alive (spiritually)?
God is simultaneously three "people", one being the father of another (and another being Caspar... j/k.) How is that logically possible?
Well, I'm sorry to say that I do think the Bible is a fictional book, so I don't consider many things in it to be truth. I mean no offense, but: part of what Christians need to do if they want their beliefs to be respected is to give some kind of justification for them beyond "this is what my holy book says." That is the claim of every other religion and every other holy book since the beginning of religious belief. Most intellectual people, even a lot of Christians, are past thinking a single very old and very apocryphal book proves anything. (That's not to insult you, it was just a general generalization of generalities. )
And don't worry, I won't feel insulted or offended by anything you say. I know since we have differing beliefs we're both kind of saying in the back of our minds, "That's weird. Why does he think that?"
I'm 16 on Sunday. How about you?
2. Yeah, I know you're gonna say that. Some people thinks that it might be a form of insanity. If we think logically, Maybe our brain recive too much pulse, so we act like a possesed person. But, the question that I can't answer is, if it's because of a pulse overload, how can we talk with them when they are "possesed"? When our brain is overloaded, we can't hear anyone talking. (not always, but sometimes we can. My dad is one of the people who is working in this case. If I ask him this question, you know, he will answer it as what catholic believe). One more thing, if there is demon or spirits, so there's a chance of the existance of God's spirit. I'm not saying that it "must be", but, there's still a chance.
I've never really have a visual-evidence of God, but sometimes I just feel Him. Yeah, maybe you're gonna say that it might only be a chemical reaction inside my body, but, it's what I believe in.
And what do you mean by "logic is flexible"?
3. Oh, I'm sorry for the missunderstanding. I see. So, here's the thing. There is some chatolic believe that said: after we die (bodily), our body is dead, but not with our spirit (more often called "soul"). So, after we die, our soul go to a place to wait for the judgement. Then, we will be judged wether we go to heaven or hell. For those who go to heaven, they got a happy immortal life. For those who go to hell, they will have the endless punishment (I don't know what they call it in english).
But, it isn't just it. There's also another meaning of death of body, and living the life of spirituality. It means that if we can defeat our physical wants, we will live a good spiritual life. That's why some people do fast (not eating anything for a period). When we fast, we will have more reflecion of what have we done in our life, and what are we gonna do next. That will cause a better character.
God (as what chatolic believe) has three spirit, but it still in one package. Like three in one. They can't be seperated. In Indonesia, we call it "tri-tunggal maha kudus" (anyone can speak Indonesian? please translate it to english). In archeology, this case represent the "multi-character" of God. (but I'm not really sure. my uncle said that)
And about Bible, it's ok. Chatolic also thinks that Bible isn't the only "God's saying". Or, maybe the more friendly word, It isn't the only resource of good saying. There's lots of good idioms in this world. And when we say something like "this is what bible says", it seems like we push you to believe in what our holy book said, am I right? So, please forgive us for being such a religion maniac.
It's my first time of meeting an Atheist. So, when I first gave you a post, my post was very unfriendly (maybe). I am really sorry.
Anyway, in my opinion, having a religion isn't a must.
What we must have is a good character.
I wont push you to be religious.
I'll be 16 in 26th of March. So, you're a bit older than me.:)
I don't like to have any enemy. And I don't want this discussion to be based on anger. So, shall we be friend?
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YohanesMC wrote:
2. Yeah, I know you're gonna say that. Some people thinks that it might be a form of insanity. If we think logically, Maybe our brain recive too much pulse, so we act like a possesed person. But, the question that I can't answer is, if it's because of a pulse overload, how can we talk with them when they are "possesed"? When our brain is overloaded, we can't hear anyone talking. (not always, but sometimes we can. My dad is one of the people who is working in this case. If I ask him this question, you know, he will answer it as what catholic believe). One more thing, if there is demon or spirits, so there's a chance of the existance of God's spirit. I'm not saying that it "must be", but, there's still a chance.
I've never really have a visual-evidence of God, but sometimes I just feel Him. Yeah, maybe you're gonna say that it might only be a chemical reaction inside my body, but, it's what I believe in.
And what do you mean by "logic is flexible"?
The insanity thing was an just an example. I don't know what the explanation is or even if the stories are true.
How do you know that it isn't just a chemical reaction (it's a lot of them, actually) inside your body? Feelings aren't always reliable or reasonable, right? Sometimes I feel angry when I shouldn't be, or feel like somebody is watching me when nobody is. Why not a similar measure of doubt for feeling like God is breathing down your neck?
By "logic is flexible" I mean that the rules of logic are strict (You can't exist but not exist, be alive but not be alive, etc...) but any number of theories are possible. You may have to radically change what you believe. I'm sure that when Copernicus first proposed that the sun, not the earth is the center of the solar system, people thought that was illogical because it ran against everything they believed at the time (including religious belief!) But it was still logical because it was coherent and it fit all the evidence.
3. Oh, I'm sorry for the missunderstanding. I see. So, here's the thing. There is some chatolic believe that said: after we die (bodily), our body is dead, but not with our spirit (more often called "soul"). So, after we die, our soul go to a place to wait for the judgement. Then, we will be judged wether we go to heaven or hell. For those who go to heaven, they got a happy immortal life. For those who go to hell, they will have the endless punishment (I don't know what they call it in english).
But, it isn't just it. There's also another meaning of death of body, and living the life of spirituality. It means that if we can defeat our physical wants, we will live a good spiritual life. That's why some people do fast (not eating anything for a period). When we fast, we will have more reflecion of what have we done in our life, and what are we gonna do next. That will cause a better character.
God (as what chatolic believe) has three spirit, but it still in one package. Like three in one. They can't be seperated. In Indonesia, we call it "tri-tunggal maha kudus" (anyone can speak Indonesian? please translate it to english). In archeology, this case represent the "multi-character" of God. (but I'm not really sure. my uncle said that)
And about Bible, it's ok. Chatolic also thinks that Bible isn't the only "God's saying". Or, maybe the more friendly word, It isn't the only resource of good saying. There's lots of good idioms in this world. And when we say something like "this is what bible says", it seems like we push you to believe in what our holy book said, am I right? So, please forgive us for being such a religion maniac.
It's my first time of meeting an Atheist. So, when I first gave you a post, my post was very unfriendly (maybe). I am really sorry.
Anyway, in my opinion, having a religion isn't a must.
What we must have is a good character.
I wont push you to be religious.
I agree. A good character is much more important.
I'm surprised that this is your first time meeting an atheist. I think it's a little sad that atheists are so scarce. It shows that a lot of people must not be thinking very hard. Not that religious people don't think... but does 99% of the globe really all have convincing personal reasons to believe in god(s)? I doubt that they do.
I'll be 16 in 26th of March. So, you're a bit older than me.:)
Eh. Clock age. Age is measured in thoughts. You may be older than I am.
I don't like to have any enemy. And I don't want this discussion to be based on anger. So, shall we be friend?
Yeah, sure! I'm not angry at you at all. I like a religious discussion that stays amicable.And your very flesh shall be a great poem.
-Walt Whitman -
godless_musician, you've changed the image of an atheist to me. Before I met you, I thought that atheist people is violent, and can't control their emotions. But, you're different.
There's lots of religious people who has worse character than you.
I think religious people and not-religious people, priest and scientist, and all people should work together, open-minded, so we all could find the deepest truth of all, and there will be only one believe in this world. With only one believe, we don't have to do war to defend our religion. And all-man's dream will come true, there will be peace all over the world.
(Hey, this could be the start of the "team-work"!)
Sorry, off topic. -
YohanesMC wrote:
godless_musician, you've changed the image of an atheist to me. Before I met you, I thought that atheist people is violent, and can't control their emotions. But, you're different.
There's lots of religious people who has worse character than you.
Thank you! But plenty of atheists have better character than I do. I'm only 15 still so my character is really just developing. I'm kind of astounded when I think of the characters of some of the people I admire, atheists or otherwise--how much of themselves they give to their ideals. Look up Ayaan Hirsi Ali on google... she's a fascinating person and I think she'll give you a very good picture of what an atheist can be like (although she comes from a Muslim background.)
If you want an example of what an atheist *shouldn't* be like, look at kingthreehead's posts.
I think religious people and not-religious people, priest and scientist, and all people should work together, open-minded, so we all could find the deepest truth of all, and there will be only one believe in this world. With only one believe, we don't have to do war to defend our religion. And all-man's dream will come true, there will be peace all over the world.
(Hey, this could be the start of the "team-work"!)
Religion vs. non-religion is a hard divide to close. The religious and the non-religious people can work together, but there's always the problem (in atheists' eyes) that the religious focus far too much on building churches and not enough on building hospitals and schools. In other words, you focus on the "spiritual world" and we on the "physical world." So a lot of our goals are at cross purposes. But I think we can still do a lot of things cooperatively if we forget that our beliefs are superficially different.
Sorry, off topic.
It's alright. At least you aren't as wordy as I am. And your very flesh shall be a great poem.
-Walt Whitman -
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I'm a Mormon, I believe in God and I also believe that Jesus is our savior, no I don't have any proof of anything I just have faith.
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godless_musician wrote:
Religion vs. non-religion is a hard divide to close. The religious and the non-religious people can work together, but there's always the problem (in atheists' eyes) that the religious focus far too much on building churches and not enough on building hospitals and schools. In other words, you focus on the "spiritual world" and we on the "physical world." So a lot of our goals are at cross purposes. But I think we can still do a lot of things cooperatively if we forget that our beliefs are superficially different.
That's why! If the people who focus on "spirituality word" works together with the people who focus on "physical words", and if they work together open-mindedly, I think there will be a believe with a perfect logical proof! Not only a believe with irrasional proof. This is only a matter of controling our emotion, not separate each other because their believe is different from our believe, and thinking the same purpose to make this world a better place to live. (Is it only my dream?) I know It's hard to do it. But we can if we want to. It's like mixing Na(dangerous chemical element) and Cl(also dangerous). As the result, it will be NaCl (salt. more useful).
If there's a will, there's a way..
BTW, godless_musician, happy birthday!
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