Covid Vaccine

    • dolphinsword wrote:

      This is so wrong on so many levels that I have to answer this.
      First it would be great if you didn't make me say things I haven't said...

      So :
      So you then must admit two things: that scientists and politics, too, have brains and eyes, and are able to use them just as you are.

      For scientists I would tend to say yes. For politics... hmmm... not so sure. Sometimes they take so dumb decisions we wonder if they think about population or about their own interests

      What they said back then was true.
      Then time passed. More data accumulated about the length of time vaccines were top efficient. And also, Omicron came. Scientists adjusted their answer to a situation that was very different from a few months prior.
      So, are you mocking scientists because they are adapting their message to a new situation?
      Again I'm not mocking anyone, but I send the question back : what if in 5 years your same scientists say we found out that the vaccine causes serious heart problems a few years after taking it or renders infertile ?
      It probably wont be the case, but who knows. Some medecine turn out to cause serious damage after being administered for years or even decades.
      What will your scientists say then ? "We didn't know "back then". We advised you to get vaccinated, to all the people who have had heart attacks since : we're sorry"

      Scientists are saying that to protect those 2%, you have to take a medecine that is generally harmless (I say 'generally' because no medecine is 100% safe ever).
      Yet you'd reject that solution baselessly, condemning those 2%?
      Well you can say the same about the regular flu. The flu causes deaths. Not as much as covid, all right. But 1%? 0.5%? 0.1? I'm not sure. But still deaths. So if I follow your logic we should vaccinate everyone, including old people, who have most risks to catch it, and also children who can catch it, have 0 or light symptoms, but transmit it to their grand parents.
      Oh wait, that's not what we're doing, we dont force vaccination against the flu. Why ? Because it doesn't cause enough deaths ? Talk about my empathy for 2%, where does yours stand ? Is 1% death rate acceptable for you ? Or 0.5? 0.1? LOL !!

      And there is another problem in your reasoning: who are those 2%? Can you tell me, with absolute accuracy, who will die and who won't? Sure, thzre are probabilities: your risk is lower if you are younger. But lower doesn't mean zero.

      Good point ! I have no idea who those 2% are. Because, as you already said, I'm no scientist. I didn't drive a study on it. Maybe it's blood type ? Genetics ? Immune system strength ? I dont know. But hey, maybe scientists and politics should work on that ? So that they vaccinate people who actually need it, and not those who dont. Rather than forcing everyone to do it and annoy all those who dont to the bone...

      Yet you claim that there is no politic point in all that? What is it then? Where lies the problem of vaccinating everybody, if not politics?

      It has nothing to do with politics, it has to do with the fact we force people who dont need a vaccine to still get it.
      Doctors and polics could tell the truth about the vaccine and let people decide for themselves.
      The truth being : we know the vaccine works against the current virus ; we dont know how much time it will work ; we dont know how many doses you will need ; we dont know if it will be efficient against the next variants. We dont know if it will affect the rest of your body in the years to come.
      But we know it prevents deaths and severe and long forms of covid.
      - Now sir, knowing all that, do you wish to get vaccinated ?
      - Hmm... I will think about all that and I'll make my mind

      That would be the one honest way to present things
      But hey, wait... That's not what they're saying. What they're saying is just :
      "The vaccine works ! Get vaccinated ! All of you ! Or we we will annoy you to the bone ! Or you will have some rights be removed ! Like your right to go to work #NewYorkCity "

      Science says that by vaccinating everybody, you'd roughly kill 1 person per million due to side effects. That's less than 10 deaths for countries like UK of France. Tell me again how many people died from it in your country? It is more than 10, I think?
      What if one of the 10 was in your family ? Lets say your dad has a immune system working fine, which makes that if he caught covid he would show no symptoms, or would only be lightly bothered for a couple of days. Now he hears that for the common interest he has to be vaccinated. Even though he wouldnt need to. We know that 10 people in the same situation as your dad will develop heart issues because of that. I hope your dad is not one of them... 10 people with a family will...

      Since when paying the pharma industry makes their products unusable?

      Did I say that ? I dont think so

      Or maybe you mean you don't want to get vaccinated as a protest over their exploitation of the population? That's a noble sacrifice. But then, I guess you don't own a smartphone, don't wear jeans and reject gifts bought online? Yeah, sure.
      Please remind me : what's the relation again between getting vaccinated, exploiting population, and wearing jeans ?

      So, your points boil down to:
      - Scientists are stupid, I can see things they can't;

      Did I say that too ? I dont think so. I'm just analyzing and asking questions. That's what's a scientist does, isn't it ?
      - Politics want to reduce my freedom;
      I didn't say that either. You did. But technically it's true. They do want to remove the freedom to decide for ourselves if we want to get vaccinated against a virus that has potentially no or little effects on the majority of people.
      They also want to take the freedom of having a job (#NYC) Being noted that you can pretty much be vaccinated, and catch covid or/and transmit it, while on the other side you can be pretty much be non-vaccinated and not catch it nor transmit it...
      - Pharma industry is greedy.

      I didn't say that either. I'm just saying if they dont get paid for the doses, they wont deliver :lol:
      I also cant help but see that the more doses, the more money.
      Talk about 3rd dose : first they said it was 6 months after the second, now it is 3 months. Which means twice as much money.
      Which leads me to the question : who in the hell are the dumbs who came up with the conclusion that it was 6 months ?

      To which I will conclude with this famous quote :
      "Imagine a vaccine so efficient and so safe that you have to be threatened to get it, against a disease so dangerous that you have to be tested to know if you have it"

      Where did you say I was wrong again ?

    • dolphinsword wrote:

      Since you got "brain and eyes", tell us then what they should have said and done instead, please
      I thought you would never ask...
      - First I wouldn't have allowed flights incoming to my country. Because that means importing the virus. I would certainly not have allowed people to go abroad and come back just "because they needed vacation"

      - Then I would have set an app on peoples phone to track where they've been to, in order to find out where they were contaminated. Because governments decided that people are contaminated in bars, cafes, restaurants, cinemas, but hey, there is no actual study to prove it. My guess would rather be on public transportation, trains, buses, undergrounds... You know, the coaches where there are 15 people in 1 squared yard, holding on bars or poles, on which 10 people put their hands on in the last 3 minutes.

      - I would have insisted that people wear... gloves. Rather than masks. Yes that sounds weird. And so more unnatural than masks. But hey, most scientists agree that the main way of transmission is physical contact (no the main way is not a virus floating in the air...)
      Someone touching you or touching something you touch later, basic things like a door, a stair ramp, an elevator button, an article at the store...

      - I would also have focused research not just on vaccines. Right at the beginning governments said the solution to the pandemic was the vaccine. They never searched for a preventive treatment (vitamins ?) or curative treatment (cloro-something from that French doctor)

      => I'm not a politician, I dont have a degree on how to run a country, but a combination of all that certainly would have worked better than their stupid lockdowns, curfews or limiting the time you are allowed to stay out
      That's just common sense

    • Starlord wrote:

      - First I wouldn't have allowed flights incoming to my country. Because that means importing the virus. I would certainly not have allowed people to go abroad and come back just "because they needed vacation"
      How? A lot of travel (and not only by plane) is for business, for school, for exporting/importing things because pretty much no country produces everything they need.


      Starlord wrote:

      - Then I would have set an app on peoples phone to track where they've been to, in order to find out where they were contaminated. Because governments decided that people are contaminated in bars, cafes, restaurants, cinemas, but hey, there is no actual study to prove it. My guess would rather be on public transportation, trains, buses, undergrounds... You know, the coaches where there are 15 people in 1 squared yard, holding on bars or poles, on which 10 people put their hands on in the last 3 minutes.
      How would you force people to use an app? Not to mention that a lot of people don't have smartphones or know how to use one.
      Also, if you're so against the government creating rules, why would you want them to know where you are at all times?


      Starlord wrote:

      - I would have insisted that people wear... gloves. Rather than masks. Yes that sounds weird. And so more unnatural than masks. But hey, most scientists agree that the main way of transmission is physical contact (no the main way is not a virus floating in the air...)
      Someone touching you or touching something you touch later, basic things like a door, a stair ramp, an elevator button, an article at the store...
      The virus is transmitted by an infected person breathing it out (hence the masks) and then by a non-infected person breathing it in (or touching somewhere with the virus, although it doesn't survive very long on surfaces, and then bringing the hands to the mouth or nose). In this case the mask isn't as effective if not worn with proper care.
      The mask is mainly to not allow the virus to escape as easily.
      You don't get covid through your fingers. Touching stuff and bringing your hands to your mouth will get you in contact the virus with and without masks.


      Starlord wrote:

      - I would also have focused research not just on vaccines. Right at the beginning governments said the solution to the pandemic was the vaccine. They never searched for a preventive treatment (vitamins ?) or curative treatment (cloro-something from that French doctor)
      With an easily transmittable disease, it's a good idea to prevent people from getting sick in the first place.
      And tThere is research in cures. The FDA recently approved a medicine or two.
      And the vaccine is preventative treatment.

    • cfgp wrote:

      Starlord wrote:

      - First I wouldn't have allowed flights incoming to my country. Because that means importing the virus. I would certainly not have allowed people to go abroad and come back just "because they needed vacation"
      How? A lot of travel (and not only by plane) is for business, for school, for exporting/importing things because pretty much no country produces everything they need.
      I meant in general. Of course there has to be exceptions. Let's say unnecessary travels.
      That's what Japan did. They 10 times less deaths than European countries and USA

      cfgp wrote:

      starlord wrote:

      - Then I would have set an app on peoples phone to track where they've been to, in order to find out where they were contaminated. Because governments decided that people are contaminated in bars, cafes, restaurants, cinemas, but hey, there is no actual study to prove it. My guess would rather be on public transportation, trains, buses, undergrounds... You know, the coaches where there are 15 people in 1 squared yard, holding on bars or poles, on which 10 people put their hands on in the last 3 minutes.
      How would you force people to use an app? Not to mention that a lot of people don't have smartphones or know how to use one.

      Ask South Korea. That's what they did. They got 5,700 deaths for 50 million population. That's 20 times less than European countries

      cfgp wrote:

      Also, if you're so against the government creating rules, why would you want them to know where you are at all times?
      You get it all wrong. I'm not saying I'm against government, new rules, or new mesures. I'm just saying many of the ones they took dont make sense

      cfgp wrote:

      The virus is transmitted by an infected person breathing it out (hence the masks) and then by a non-infected person breathing it in (or touching somewhere with the virus, although it doesn't survive very long on surfaces, and then bringing the hands to the mouth or nose). In this case the mask isn't as effective if not worn with proper care.
      The mask is mainly to not allow the virus to escape as easily.
      You don't get covid through your fingers. Touching stuff and bringing your hands to your mouth will get you in contact the virus with and without masks.
      Not really. Actually the risk is very low to get infected by breathing in some particles that were breathed put by some one else. At least in the street. Unless of course it is very, very, very, very crowded. Or unless someone coughs right in your face... I would admit masks may be more useful in the inside, in little shops or in the underground. It is way easy to make people accept masks, that makes governments look like they are actually doing something.
      But I dont think it really works.
      Why ? Because we've been wearing them for 2 years just about everywhere, and it didn't prevent a second, third, and fourth wave ! So they may stop a few transmission, that's definitely not the main solution

      cfgp wrote:

      There is research in cures. The FDA recently approved a medicine or two.
      And the vaccine is preventative treatment.
      By preventive I meant "which prevents from catching the virus"
      Vaccine does not prevent that

      Ever since the beginning of the pandemic, governments strategy in nearly all countries was the vaccine. They never talked about curative treatments. I am aware that a couple of medecine are on their way, but that's certainly not thanks to governments help

    • Starlord wrote:

      Ask South Korea. That's what they did. They got 5,700 deaths for 50 million population. That's 20 times less than European countries
      I am not saying it wouldn't work (if everyone, or at least most people had a smartphone and knew how to use the app). Here in Portugal, there was an app, but no one wanted to use it, because they didn't want the government tracking them (even though the app didn't actually do it) so it wasn't useful.


      Starlord wrote:

      Not really. Actually the risk is very low to get infected by breathing in some particles that were breathed put by some one else. At least in the street. Unless of course it is very, very, very, very crowded. Or unless someone coughs right in your face... I would admit masks may be more useful in the inside, in little shops or in the underground. It is way easy to make people accept masks, that makes governments look like they are actually doing something.
      But I dont think it really works.
      Why ? Because we've been wearing them for 2 years just about everywhere, and it didn't prevent a second, third, and fourth wave ! So they may stop a few transmission, that's definitely not the main solution
      Masks make more sense in some places then other, I agree with you there. I agree that in open non-crowded spaces, they probably don't do much. In closed & crowded spaces, yes, I would say that they are useful.
      It may have not prevented the waves, but it probably decreased the size. To be 100 % sure, we would need a parallel universe to be the control group :D


      Starlord wrote:

      By preventive I meant "which prevents from catching the virus"
      Vaccine does not prevent that
      Nothing prevents catching the virus, except some physical barrier outside of you (like condoms, for HIV and other STDs. Those prevent contact with the virus).
      If you are in contact with the virus, it will infect you (you with catch it).
      What vaccines do is teach your immune system (as happens for diseases that you have contacted before) to respond quickly.
      Which is always difficult for very infectious diseases, but they do work at slowing down the infection so it can be eliminated before causing to much harm (which explains why most vaccinated people have no or mild symptoms).

    • Well ... this turned into a political shit storm now didn't it! I didn't mean for that to happen.

      Anyway, it got me. I caught the rona. This after having had my third dose of the vaccine in mid january. Oddly, or I guess not oddly enough, I feel fine. Nothing more than congestion and a headache and I'm sleeping an awful lot, except for now, because it is 530am and I'm wide awake with nothing to do except stay in my bedroom away from the rest of the family.

    • collin13 wrote:

      Well ... this turned into a political shit storm now didn't it! I didn't mean for that to happen.

      Anyway, it got me. I caught the rona. Oddly, or I guess not oddly enough, I feel fine. Nothing more than congestion and a headache and I'm sleeping an awful lot, except for now, because it is 530am and I'm wide awake with nothing to do except stay in my bedroom away from the rest of the family.
      Hope you're feeling better soon!

    • collin13 wrote:

      Well ... this turned into a political shit storm now didn't it! I didn't mean for that to happen.

      Anyway, it got me. I caught the rona. This after having had my third dose of the vaccine in mid january. Oddly, or I guess not oddly enough, I feel fine. Nothing more than congestion and a headache and I'm sleeping an awful lot, except for now, because it is 530am and I'm wide awake with nothing to do except stay in my bedroom away from the rest of the family.
      yeah that sounds about right :/ hope you feel better soon. :hugs:

      Not sure what's going to happen with people catching it in the UK soon :S still alot of people catching it, but because of the vaccine, natural immunity, and the relative less severity, by the end of the month self isolation looks like it's going to be scrapped. Meaning there'll also be no reason to give testing. So covid will just become another "I've got flu/cold"

      Ok for most people, but for vulnerable it can still be dangerous even with vaccine, do they risk their life everyday, or become a recluse?

      Good Friend :play: Kinda Romantic :love: Ready to Rock :zomg:

      "If you try to follow fashion you'll always be chasing, and probably never catch it. If you be yourself and make your own style, fashion might just bump into you one day."

    • BJade wrote:

      Ok for most people, but for vulnerable it can still be dangerous even with vaccine, do they risk their life everyday, or become a recluse?
      It's still dangerous for all of us, not just the vulnerable. In some areas of Austria, even with the supposedly mild variants, hospitals are filling up, though not icus yet as much as before, and other people in need of a bed can't get one. Is all over the media in the past few days again. And that's the big issue that affects all of us! Plus, many working in hospitals are quitting and looking for new jobs or retiring early. Mom had another 3 of her dozen or so rotation team quit in January. And it's not like (especially icu) nurses or physicians grow on trees.

    • notthatchrisevans wrote:

      BJade wrote:

      Ok for most people, but for vulnerable it can still be dangerous even with vaccine, do they risk their life everyday, or become a recluse?
      It's still dangerous for all of us, not just the vulnerable. In some areas of Austria, even with the supposedly mild variants, hospitals are filling up, though not icus yet as much as before, and other people in need of a bed can't get one. Is all over the media in the past few days again. And that's the big issue that affects all of us! Plus, many working in hospitals are quitting and looking for new jobs or retiring early. Mom had another 3 of her dozen or so rotation team quit in January. And it's not like (especially icu) nurses or physicians grow on trees.
      yeah same here but :S no body really cares :( . Part of the larger number is because a larger number are caching it. But I agree it's still a risk

      Was going to be mandatory for all health workers to get vaccinated, now because a large number didn't want to be, its been scrapped. So in a month could be treated by unvaccinated, untested, symptomatic (as workers were already being made to work due to shortages) at your most vulnerable. So I feel sorry for the health workers (like your mum, and members of my family) that are getting vaccinated and over worked :hugs: but also feel kinda angry that there are lots here that would rather have lost there job than be vaccinated (especially after all the stuff we've done to follow rules) and so make there friends/colleagues work without their help

      Good Friend :play: Kinda Romantic :love: Ready to Rock :zomg:

      "If you try to follow fashion you'll always be chasing, and probably never catch it. If you be yourself and make your own style, fashion might just bump into you one day."

    • BJade wrote:

      collin13 wrote:

      Well ... this turned into a political shit storm now didn't it! I didn't mean for that to happen.

      Anyway, it got me. I caught the rona. This after having had my third dose of the vaccine in mid january. Oddly, or I guess not oddly enough, I feel fine. Nothing more than congestion and a headache and I'm sleeping an awful lot, except for now, because it is 530am and I'm wide awake with nothing to do except stay in my bedroom away from the rest of the family.
      yeah that sounds about right :/ hope you feel better soon. :hugs:
      Not sure what's going to happen with people catching it in the UK soon :S still alot of people catching it, but because of the vaccine, natural immunity, and the relative less severity, by the end of the month self isolation looks like it's going to be scrapped. Meaning there'll also be no reason to give testing. So covid will just become another "I've got flu/cold"

      Ok for most people, but for vulnerable it can still be dangerous even with vaccine, do they risk their life everyday, or become a recluse?
      Thank you. I actually slept a good part of the day, did classes this afternoon and am tired again now. That's the worst part, I've got zero energy right now and feel like an elephant is sitting on my chest right now. Every muscle hurts. Its crazy.

      My mom and step dad are er doctors and they said the same thing, its gonna become endemic and that is a good thing. Put this shit behind us all and get on with our existence!

    • notthatchrisevans wrote:

      It's still dangerous for all of us, not just the vulnerable. In some areas of Austria, even with the supposedly mild variants, hospitals are filling up, though not icus yet as much as before, and other people in need of a bed can't get one. Is all over the media in the past few days again. And that's the big issue that affects all of us! Plus, many working in hospitals are quitting and looking for new jobs or retiring early. Mom had another 3 of her dozen or so rotation team quit in January. And it's not like (especially icu) nurses or physicians grow on trees.
      Then maybe the solution was to add more beds and provide more material and more trained personel to hospitals, rather than wait 2 years to vaccinate every one against a virus which is deadly in only 1% of cases ?

    • collin13 wrote:

      Well ... this turned into a political shit storm now didn't it! I didn't mean for that to happen.

      Anyway, it got me. I caught the rona. This after having had my third dose of the vaccine in mid january. Oddly, or I guess not oddly enough, I feel fine. Nothing more than congestion and a headache and I'm sleeping an awful lot, except for now, because it is 530am and I'm wide awake with nothing to do except stay in my bedroom away from the rest of the family.
      Hey buddy, I hope it is not too severe and you'll recover soon
      Hugs

    • Starlord wrote:

      Then maybe the solution was to add more beds and provide more material and more trained personel to hospitals, rather than wait 2 years to vaccinate every one against a virus which is deadly in only 1% of cases ?
      that was done. There is a physical limit on how many beds you can fit in (some hospitals had beds in the car park)

      Theres a limit on trained staff, and a lot of retired, trainee, and military medics were brought in. But when you have a large number of your staff sick at a time theres not enough people (unless you just want to drag people off the street to do complex surgery and procedures) as it takes many years to train

      And getting more material is great, but that happened at the start of the pandemic and a ridiculously large quantity was found to be of unusable quality (billions of £ worth)

      Good Friend :play: Kinda Romantic :love: Ready to Rock :zomg:

      "If you try to follow fashion you'll always be chasing, and probably never catch it. If you be yourself and make your own style, fashion might just bump into you one day."

    • Starlord wrote:

      Then maybe the solution was to add more beds and provide more material and more trained personel to hospitals, rather than wait 2 years to vaccinate every one against a virus which is deadly in only 1% of cases ?
      We're talking about high skilled labour which take years to train. My mother's education as an anaesthetist, which in Austria are the lead physicians of ICUs, takes 6 years after graduating medical school (which is another 6 years minimum here). Training ICU nurses takes between 4 and 5 years. How can that be fit into 2 years again, even if you had the people? Plus, Austria has one of the highest numbers of hospital beds per capita in Europe, about three times the beds of the UK. But sure, tell me again how that's the real problem :rolleyes:

    • notthatchrisevans wrote:

      Starlord wrote:

      Then maybe the solution was to add more beds and provide more material and more trained personel to hospitals, rather than wait 2 years to vaccinate every one against a virus which is deadly in only 1% of cases ?
      We're talking about high skilled labour which take years to train. My mother's education as an anaesthetist, which in Austria are the lead physicians of ICUs, takes 6 years after graduating medical school (which is another 6 years minimum here). Training ICU nurses takes between 4 and 5 years. How can that be fit into 2 years again, even if you had the people? Plus, Austria has one of the highest numbers of hospital beds per capita in Europe, about three times the beds of the UK. But sure, tell me again how that's the real problem :rolleyes:
      How many people are there in icu again ?

    • Starlord wrote:

      notthatchrisevans wrote:

      Starlord wrote:

      Then maybe the solution was to add more beds and provide more material and more trained personel to hospitals, rather than wait 2 years to vaccinate every one against a virus which is deadly in only 1% of cases ?
      We're talking about high skilled labour which take years to train. My mother's education as an anaesthetist, which in Austria are the lead physicians of ICUs, takes 6 years after graduating medical school (which is another 6 years minimum here). Training ICU nurses takes between 4 and 5 years. How can that be fit into 2 years again, even if you had the people? Plus, Austria has one of the highest numbers of hospital beds per capita in Europe, about three times the beds of the UK. But sure, tell me again how that's the real problem :rolleyes:
      How many people are there in icu again ?
      Gaslight someone else.

    • I have chosen not to get it for personal reasons. People should be able to get it if they want it, and those that don't want it don't have to.


      "We didn't realize we were making memories, we just knew we were having fun." - Winnie the Pooh

      R.I.P. VT
      2004 - 2021

      For questions/comments/concerns please DM here or contact:
      [email protected]