it all started out with a single celled ameba that split, and under differnt conditions mutated and split mutated and became 2 celled etc;

thats my theory.

I ain't too sure. Maybe.. :confused:

Yeah, in the beginning was nothing... which exploded. And here we are today. [/light-hearted sarcasm]

Mmm... my answer was Yes, partly, because microevolution is a given.
Macroevolution has no credibility though, and contradicts everything I've come to believe about where we came from.
I do know quite a bit about the theory. Science classes (Biology, geology, astronomy, anatomy, etc.), my parents, certain sites, and certain television shows.
But that really doesn't make a difference to me anyway, because I don't consider the study of our origons science.

Evolution and religion don't mix. G-d could've caused evolution to happen, u know.

Those two statements just completely contradicted themselves.

But yeah sure, God could've used evolution to create. He could've done anything.
But it doesn't matter what He could've done.
All that's important is what He said He did. And what He said he did is a far cry from what the evolutionary theory claims.

I believe in microevolution. But not in macroevolution. We can evolve slowly, but will not cause a big change. Because what we have is DNA. If human has RNA, it will be possible, because RNA has more possibility of making a mistake when it's reproducing than DNA.. That's why it's more dificult to fight a virus with RNA than a virus with DNA, because a virus with RNA mutate faster than a virus with DNA. (I know about the RNA and DNA thing from my biology teacher. But, the impossibility of macroevolution is only my prediction)

K, lets say g-d did create the world, u don't know how long each day was 4 g-d. A day could've been a couple of yrs b/c g-d has no concept of time. So evolution still could've happened.

No concept of time? God created time.
He's outside of it, but He has a perfect concept of it.
And taking the language and it's context in Genesis, it's very clear that the word day means a literal 24-hour day.
When the hebrew word "YOM" follows a number or the words "morning" "evening" or "night", it means a normal day.
And that's just the case in Genesis.




And godless_musician, macroevolution has no credibility in my eyes, because, for one... it completely contradicts God's Word.
And two... it's a totally man-made theory.

Only if you make our origins a matter of religion are they not a matter for science. Science deals with the observable and religion is the ultimate unobservable.

A very broad, unfair statement.
Actually, humanism and atheism are as much "religions" as is, say... Christianity.
However that's not the point.
We cannot observe evolution today.
Show me where a dog turns into anything but a dog.
Show me where one organism turns into a complete other.
It can't be done.
The fossils, DNA samples, yada, yada, that you use as evidence for evolution are the same exact ones I use as evidence for creation.
We look at the same world.
But because of our conflicting presuppositional biases, we will always interpret what we see differently.

so if a new animal was created, it would just drop out of the sky? or just appear?

YOM means day, but that doesn't cancel out that the morning could have been 28 hours and night 4 or something.

mellow wrote:

so if a new animal was created, it would just drop out of the sky? or just appear?

I'm not sure what you were getting at here.
No. God created every animal we see existing today, and no more.
He didn't create every kind of animal.
i.e.- He didn't create a Dalmatoin, and a pug, and a cyote, and a Beagle.
He simply created dogs. They bred together and genetics took over to produce the different kinds.

Saved-by-Grace, I think you have every reason to personally disbelieve the evolution theory, but forgive me if I get angry when you say that it has no credibility as a theory. As for your first reason for objecting to it, it sounds an awful lot like you have a conclusion you are determined to arrive at no matter what the evidence along the way--that is, creation. Even if you do accept creation, shouldn't the evidence show how God created us--through evolution? The evidence seems to show that we evolved, whatever began or oversaw the process--so if you do accept creationism, why does the theory of evolution have to be thrown out? Anyway, that's not the point. Since I see evidence as taking precedence to faith (we were born with eyes and ears, after all--not a built-in Bible unit) if the evidence (which favors macroevolution) conflicts with religion it's *religion* that needs to be thrown out. Nor does it really matter that it's a "man-made theory", since aren't all theories, ideas, and religions man-made?

As for the "I haven't ever seen anything evolving" part, you also have never seen grass growing, unless you're extremely patient. Likewise, you would also have to be extremely patient as well as thousands of years old to see what you're talking about--one animal becoming another. Nobody has seen that. But we have seen evidence for it. (Have you seen Jesus?)

Evolution doesn't happen by new species popping out of the ground and saying "look, new DNA!" It happens by gradual mutation and sexual recombination, which is harder to see through binoculars.

I'm really not attacking your faith--what I'm trying to attack is holding on to faith even when it goes directly against what's right before your eyes.

Godless, you've honestly got my respect for your way of reasoning in a sense.
Thing is, I don't see the evidence supporting evolution.
I just honestly don't.
I look at God's Word, and then I look around, and I see that it all fits.
What's so hard to believe?
Read the Genesis account some time.
Design implies a designer.
You don't walk into a building, and think of how cool it must've been for all those bricks to explode in just the right way to create the building.
You know there was an intelligence behind that building.
And that's only where my faith in a creator starts.
From there, I look at what He says, and compare it to what I see.
It fits together, it really does.
From dinosaurs to the fossils scattered across the earth, the Bible has an answer.


Maybe I don't stare at the grass to watch it grow, but I see it's there.
And I've yet to see grass seeds grow into anything but grass.

And no, I haven't seen Jesus. But I don't claim that He's science either.
I've seen what He's done. I've heard what He's said. I've come to have an incredible relationship with Him.
He's there.
If I sound crazy, that's only because the preaching of the cross is foolishness to those that are perishing. (1 Corinthians 1:18)

I'm well aware that evolution doesn't supposedly happen by new species popping out of the ground.
But even through gradual genetic mutations, no creature or organism has ever evolved into a complete other one.
The animal changes kinds, but it doesn't change species.


And I know you're not attacking my faith. You're simply supporting yours and that's to be expected.
Don't worry about it. You're seriously one of the most respectable, and well-composed athiests I've ever dealt with.
I may not respect your position, but I respect you. I would hope you feel likewise.
Just keep handling yourself as you are, and I shall have no qualms about your debating tactics or style.

Bite me... ouch wrote:

!YOM means day, but that doesn't cancel out that the morning could have been 28 hours and night 4 or something.

That was... misinformed.
But even if it wasn't... that supports evolution or millions of years... how exactly?

i believe in the theory of evolution
i think god started it all...

this thinking satisfies my religion and science sides lol

And getting to know other people, I've come to realize that any given person can look at any given other, and belive they're ignorant or missing something.
We're all so diverse, it's incredible. Sad to a degree, but enlightening in another way.
Not two single people on the planet have completely identical beliefs.
The thing is... everyone believes their right, and all others are wrong. That's natural.

Well, check out the links I've posted. Also, look around. Evolution is both very elegant and simple and is capable of explaining the entire natural world we see around it. Creationism *sort of* explains things, but not really. "God did it" is an explanation, but it only explains up to a point--it says nothing about God's nature or how He created what he did. So that explanation always left me unsatisfied and I thought there was none until I came across the evolution theory.

Actually, it says as much about HOW He did it, as it does WHAT He did.
He spoke the universe into existence.
He made man out of the dust of the ground, and literally breathed into him the breath of life. Then He took man's rib, and created a woman.
He did this in six literal 24-hour days, and rested on the seventh day. Not because He had to, but to set the pattern for us.

Can I ask you a few questions?
What would you say... if you had to... is the single best evidence out there for evolution?
Why are there so many differing theories?
Has it ever occured to you that what you accept as fact right now concerning our origins, could be totally countered by mainstream evolutionists and scientists, and thrown out or replaced in just the next decade or so?

That is *exactly* the feeling I get about evolution. "It all fits" It feels wonderful to have something so complex and beautiful and know the exact simplicity behind it.

But it's disgusting! :p
We... via millions/billions of years of death, disease, mutations, and struggle... evolved from either pond scum or some other sickening organism that came from who knows where... into what we are today.
Forgive me if I find that a bit disturbing or hard to swallow.

Would you find it unfair if I summed up the very initial start of this universe by saying...
In the beginning was nothing... which exploded.
And 4 billion years later, here we are.

It's hard to believe that it took 7 days for creation to come about, and not 4 thousand million! The creation theory is truly bricks exploding together and making a building- except there's an inexplicable omnipotent force behind it.

Oh no, my friend. It's not hard to believe at all.
LOL. No. The creation theory is an infinite, all powerful designer creating the building.
Evolution says there's nobody behind all this.

But the world as we see it doesn't imply design. I think you're pulling a rabbit out of a hat that you (indavertently or not) put there to begin with.

Whaa...?
How does this world not imply a designer? Okay. I don't even know why I'm doing this. But, for the sake of your argument, let's just *pretend* that the Bible explained the making of our universe in a way that lines up beautifully with the current evolutionary theory.
Would you believe it? Answer that question honestly first.
Now let's say the rest of the Bible said exactly what it already says all the way through the rest of it.
What would you think of that God?
Maybe once you answer those questions, I can remember where I was going with this.

If you think about, a building is a continuation of the evolution of mankind. It took an intelligence yes, but that intelligence evolved, didn't it? Didn't we have to experiment over aeons to figure out how to make bricks, how to make mortar, how to put them all together so it wouldn't fall down? That's evolution.

No it's not!!!
LOL. I'd use all CAPS for that, but I'm working on my virtual ettiquette.
You decided it was with the pretense that we evolved.
I say we didn't and God created us with His own intelligence... giving us intelligence to begin with so we'd figure out how to do things like say... build buildings.
And honestly, I don't doubt the original humans were naturally a lot brighter and intelligent than we are today. We as humans are getting dumber by the century.... we've just got so much headway from those before us, we're not really slowing down with it yet, and we appear so much more intellectual and brilliant.

Whereas God created it without an explanation for Him or How we was able, and he did it without trial and error, just by his divine power. How does that explain anything?

He's God.
He's capable of doing whatever He wants to.
What kind of loving, wonderful God would He be if He created us through eons of death, disease, and struggle, then sat back, looked at us and said it was all very good...?
He did what He did. I don't know how that confuses you about an explanation.
Maybe if you were more specific in your question?

It's *an* answer, but I think it's not as good an answer as science and the evolution theory. The more I see about your faith, the more informed it seems to me, but I'm still convinced that you're wrong.

Science? Define science.
LOL. I love how you put things.
And the more I hear about evolution... the more I'm convinced there's a God that created just as He claimed to in His Word!

But you've seen an infant grow into an adult (or know such a thing happens.) That's gradual and involves one kind of thing turning into another. So substitue "species" for "kind" and you have speciation--evolution. If you believe that one breed of dog becomes another... why not a wolf becoming a domestic dog?

No it doesn't have anything to do with on thing changing into another. It involves a human... a person... growing naturally as God intended into a fully developed human... a person.
A baby and an older adult are still both completely people. The baby doesn't have anything added to it, or anything develop on it that wasn't there to begin with by the time it's older.
In fact, it loses a lot through the course of it's life. And that's not evolution at all. Close to the opposite actually.

But species and kinds are two different things.
An example of two different species would be a flamingo and a mountain goat. They're two completely different creatures all together. No matter what you do, they could never, ever be bred.
An example of two kinds would be a dalmation and a poodle. Or even cyote and a poodle. They're different yes, but they're still dogs. (just different kinds of dogs) And they'll never produce anything but dogs.
Change is no evidence for macroevolution.

How do you know?

How do you know one has?
I find it only fair that if the burden of proof for a God falls on me, the burden of proof for a creature giving birth to another different creature falls on... naturally, you.

I hope you don't mean that I'm supporting my *faith*, because I'm about as faithless as they come.

Ahh, think again my friend.
Faith doesn't just mean a belief in the supernatural, or a blind belief.
It can simply mean a complete confidence in something.
You have a complete confidence in many things, I'm sure.

Believing in God is a faith, but far from a blind faith. Just as you believe you see everything backing up what you believe in... so do I.
There's a little too much I'd have to swallow to accept a lot of what you do.
And surprise, surprise... the thing is... I don't believe I have enough faith to be an athiest!

It is not a theory, it is a scientific fact that evolution exists. Microevolution certainly exists. There have been countless observances of it. When austronauts go into space their muscles weakne because of the lack of gravity, their muscles have adapted to the new enviroment and thus evolved, in a way.
Similarly, there was an incident where a forest was polluted, the moths hiding on the trees had to blend in with the now blackened bark, so after a few months the great majorety of moths were black. When the forest was cleared of the pollution, the moths returned back to their white color to blend in with the bark.
Macroevolution, on the otherhand, is harder to prove but still possible. While the entirety of terrestrial life may not have originated from a single species, they have none the less evolved over millions of years to exibit the traits seen today.

Furthermore, the idea of evolution does not directly conflict with that of creationism. The language of the Bible, and indeed many other religious texts, is rather vague, allowing for multiple interpretations. No adequate scale can be provided when comparing God's days and our own. What is time to an immortal?