Abortion?

proud_mom182 · Mar 12th 2009, 7:13am

DeamonD wrote:

I still think it is up to the parent....
Not because I am pro abortion....but I am not completely against it either.

Whatever their reasons are, they must be valid reasons which justify their actions...
Anyone of us saying it is wrong is simply immoral because we can not really identify what is right and what is wrong. These are our own views and they have theirs......

Hm.......perhaps there should be limits to why the abortion should take place? Something like "qualify" ie: mother is a heavy drinker and a drug abused.....hence the child will be deformed or mentally challenged....and it will be unfair to give that kind of life to a baby.........

Anyway, too many things that branch off of other things, which branch off of others....

I never thought of it that way, and I agree with you. Some people should not be parents.

google_lover · Mar 12th 2009, 10:53am

Before I say anything, I respect the fact that you choose to support abortion, although I don't agree with it. I'm not the type of person who screams "you're wrong!" at people. I never attack a person in a debate, I merely attack their arguement. :)
Now...

Goddess of Judecca wrote:

Some of us aren't concerned with when it becomes a "life" or "human." All life is sacred (to a point), in my opinion, regardless of species.

I'm unclear by your statement "all life is sacred to a point".

<general comment> How can one condone the killing of an innocent, defensless unborn child? I find it highly hypocritical when people support abortion and then say they are against euthanasia.</general comment>

Goddess of Judecca wrote:

What I care about, as do most other pro-abortionists, is the level of suffering the fetus feels during the procedure. And science does have an answer for that.

Could you show me some evidence? Have scientists asked the foetus "does it hurt when I do this?"

Like I said before, I am a fairly open-minded person. If someone can sufficiently convince me of something I will re-evaluate my opinion...

T.N.T · Mar 12th 2009, 11:18am

Heres what i think and some of you may disagree and that im being insensitive...but think about it..okay if im 18 at the moment and my bf whose in hospital at the mo. asked if we could be serious now...i havnt decised whether to go through with it or not im actually stuck...anyways lets say i go through with it and down the lyn i fall accadently preggy...id get an abortion 3mnths before coz the fetus is not properly formed and it not nyc bringin someone into a world with probelems it aint right

google_lover · Mar 12th 2009, 11:31am

T.N.T wrote:

Heres what i think and some of you may disagree and that im being insensitive...but think about it..okay if im 18 at the moment and my bf whose in hospital at the mo. asked if we could be serious now...i havnt decised whether to go through with it or not im actually stuck...anyways lets say i go through with it and down the lyn i fall accadently preggy...id get an abortion 3mnths before coz the fetus is not properly formed and it not nyc bringin someone into a world with probelems it aint right

Again, I respect your decision, but I disagree with it.

If you become pregnant, it's your fault. If you didn't want to become pregnant, you should've abstained from sex. An innocent child should not be killed because of your poor judgement. If you boyfriend is pressuring you to have sex and you don't want to, then I'd question his true feelings for you. His pressuring shows a lack of respect.

It is generally accepted that a foetus is fully formed by 10-12 weeks.

I agree it's not right tobring a child into a problem-ridden life. The easiest way to prevent that is not to create a child.l :)

Goddess of Judecca · Mar 12th 2009, 12:01pm

T.N.T wrote:

Heres what i think and some of you may disagree and that im being insensitive...but think about it..okay if im 18 at the moment and my bf whose in hospital at the mo. asked if we could be serious now...i havnt decised whether to go through with it or not im actually stuck...anyways lets say i go through with it and down the lyn i fall accadently preggy...id get an abortion 3mnths before coz the fetus is not properly formed and it not nyc bringin someone into a world with probelems it aint right

I think I'd rather you know how to spell "accidentally" before you produce any kids.

google_lover wrote:

I'm unclear by your statement "all life is sacred to a point".

It's sacred in there needs to be an honest reason for taking it away. That's why I don't believe in hunting for sport, but hunting for population control and food is fine. If I'm cutting the grass and there's a bee on a flower in front of me, I'll sit and wait until it moves because I don't have a good enough reason to kill it.

google_lover wrote:

<general comment> How can one condone the killing of an innocent, defensless unborn child? I find it highly hypocritical when people support abortion and then say they are against euthanasia.</general comment>

I'm all for euthanasia, in people and animals.

google_lover wrote:

Could you show me some evidence? Have scientists asked the foetus "does it hurt when I do this?"

The synaptic connections in the brain necessary for the registering of pain aren't present until the third trimester, when less than 1% of abortions take place. While some anti-abortionists aren't willing to accept it, anyone with any real medical training knows it's true.

google_lover wrote:

If you become pregnant, it's your fault. If you didn't want to become pregnant, you should've abstained from sex. An innocent child should not be killed because of your poor judgement. If you boyfriend is pressuring you to have sex and you don't want to, then I'd question his true feelings for you. His pressuring shows a lack of respect.

Nobody said it's not her failt. I fully, 100% agree with you that it is. However, that doesn't mean the fetus can't be aborted, just because it's not its fault. Assuming that that's what it means is rather ridiculous.

google_lover wrote:

It is generally accepted that a foetus is fully formed by 10-12 weeks.

Huh? Fetuses don't stop developing until shortly before they're born. The lungs are the last to develop, along with the brain. That's why premis have such little chances of surviving - their bodies weren't given enough time to develop before they were born. If they were fully formed at 10-12 weeks, they could be born then without problems. But they're still pretty often naturally aborted (expelled by the body) at that stage as nothing more than bleeding.

~Maggot

google_lover · Mar 12th 2009, 12:56pm

Goddess of Judecca wrote:

That's why I don't believe in hunting for sport, but hunting for population control and food is fine. If I'm cutting the grass and there's a bee on a flower in front of me, I'll sit and wait until it moves because I don't have a good enough reason to kill it.

I find it ironic that you wouldn't kill a bee, but you would kill a child. :-\

Goddess of Judecca wrote:

The synaptic connections in the brain necessary for the registering of pain aren't present until the third trimester, when less than 1% of abortions take place. While some anti-abortionists aren't willing to accept it, anyone with any real medical training knows it's true.

Fair enough. But Ii still don't support abortion. :)

Goddess of Judecca wrote:

Nobody said it's not her failt.

I phrased that badly. :-\

Goddess of Judecca wrote:

Huh? Fetuses don't stop developing until shortly before they're born. The lungs are the last to develop, along with the brain. That's why premis have such little chances of surviving - their bodies weren't given enough time to develop before they were born. If they were fully formed at 10-12 weeks, they could be born then without problems. But they're still pretty often naturally aborted (expelled by the body) at that stage as nothing more than bleeding.

Ah, you have to be careful with your words. The foetus is formed at 10-12 weeks, but (as you've stated) does not stop developing until shortly before it's born. If Bodies - The Exhibition ever comes to your area, you should see it. It's in Dublin at the moment, and has several preserved foetuses (which died naturally). At 12 weeks, you can see that everything is perfectly formed - it just needs to grow... :)

Goddess of Judecca · Mar 12th 2009, 1:11pm

google_lover wrote:

I find it ironic that you wouldn't kill a bee, but you would kill a child. :-

Wow, way to totally miss my point. I was saying that I would kill a bee if I had a good reason, just as I'd kill a fetus if I had a good reason. And that's how, to me, all life is equally sacred, regardless of species.

Although, actually, I'd probably sooner kill the fetus, since it can't feel pain like the bee can. A being's ability to suffer basically determines what I'll put it through and why.

google_lover wrote:

Ah, you have to be careful with your words. The foetus is formed at 10-12 weeks, but (as you've stated) does not stop developing until shortly before it's born. If Bodies - The Exhibition ever comes to your area, you should see it. It's in Dublin at the moment, and has several preserved foetuses (which died naturally). At 12 weeks, you can see that everything is perfectly formed - it just needs to grow... :)

Their genitalia aren't fully formed until 14 weeks, and the bones in their backs are still forming as well. Finger- and toeprints aren't formed until later, as well. Just because it looks fully formed, that doesn't mean it is. If you've got some reliable sources, though, I'd be happy to reconsider my opinion.

But, even if it is fully "formed," that really doesn't mean anything. It's still not "developed" enough to be considered a baby, nor can it survive on its own.

~Maggot

Titus Pullo · Mar 12th 2009, 1:17pm

If I were a doctor, I wouldn't preform that perticular operation. Although I would never judge someone if they decided they wanted, or they needed an abortion. I don't even know the first thing about what it feels like to have a child.

The Guardian · Mar 12th 2009, 1:19pm

It guess the justifies the killing of you, given the right reasons. Regardless of personal preferences, the fetus, as many call it, or the child whichever you will, it a living creature, that like many is killed without reason or rhyme other than personal gain.

Based off your logic, no matter the case, given a good reason I have the right to kill it. I guess this would be the reason there are so many murder investigations? There is more to the argument, and even better ones than, a good reason.

Neal · Mar 12th 2009, 1:30pm

The Guardian wrote:

It guess the justifies the killing of you, given the right reasons. Regardless of personal preferences, the fetus, as many call it, or the child whichever you will, it a living creature, that like many is killed without reason or rhyme other than personal gain.

Based off your logic, no matter the case, given a good reason I have the right to kill it. I guess this would be the reason there are so many murder investigations? There is more to the argument, and even better ones than, a good reason.

This is the paragraph that pretends to have a lot of substance, when it doesn't, and it's based off a fallacy. Murder is not possible with a lifeless zygote.

What would be the difference between my parents having sex, and aborting me while I was a zygote, so that I never came to life, and, my parents refusing to have sex, so that I also never came to life?

Again, and again, and again, every single religious person here changes the argument back to zygote as a fetus or child or fetus as a child.

*Nobody* here argues that aborting a baby the day before being born is morally right / makes the difference between the day of birth.

DeamonD · Mar 12th 2009, 5:57pm

google_lover wrote:

If you become pregnant, it's your fault. If you didn't want to become pregnant, you should've abstained from sex

Dude, that argument is fundamentally flawed...

If you drive a car, and you know there is a chance that you can get into an accident.....and then someone rams you, and you die...........then it is your own fault for driving in the first place and hence dying?

Or if say you eat the food...and you know there is a chance that you can choke....and you do, and die........then it is your fault you died because you should not have been eating?

It does not make sense. Although I see what you are saying, but it just does not make sense. There is a risk in everything you do............for all you know, your computer monitor can blow up in your face right now.............but everyone accepts the risks and chooses to deal with them in their own way.

You will probably bring up a point that it comes down to you, and YOUR life...vs a life of someone else....point taken...but...how do you define a person?

Would you call an egg that just got fertilized a "person"? When it is 1 cell? 2 cells? 4 cells? 16? 100,000? When the baby kicks? When it comes out of the vagina?

Goddess of Judecca wrote:

If I'm cutting the grass and there's a bee on a flower in front of me, I'll sit and wait until it moves because I don't have a good enough reason to kill it.

Thats exactly what I do
XD

LuklaAdvocate · Mar 12th 2009, 8:01pm

DeamonD wrote:

Also, many people who demand that abortion is made illegal, never have been in the situation where they had to make a choice.

Which is a flawed argument.

DeamonD · Mar 12th 2009, 8:03pm

LuklaAdvocate wrote:

Which is a flawed argument.

......uh..
care to explain as to...why?

I can run around and make accusations too without proving or disproving anything too you know...

LuklaAdvocate · Mar 12th 2009, 8:59pm

DeamonD wrote:

......uh..
care to explain as to...why?

I can run around and make accusations too without proving or disproving anything too you know...

I already did explain why, in the post directly above yours.

Teen Forums - View Single Post - Abortion?

Goddess of Judecca · Mar 12th 2009, 9:07pm

The Guardian wrote:

It guess the justifies the killing of you, given the right reasons. Regardless of personal preferences, the fetus, as many call it, or the child whichever you will, it a living creature, that like many is killed without reason or rhyme other than personal gain.

Based off your logic, no matter the case, given a good reason I have the right to kill it. I guess this would be the reason there are so many murder investigations? There is more to the argument, and even better ones than, a good reason.

I'm not disagreeing with anything you just said. I have nothing against people that kill, given the right reasons, even if the law does punish them.

If I needed to in order to survive, I would kill an animal or even a kid. I wouldn't like it, and I'd feel guilty, but I'd do it. I'd kill a fetus, too, but I wouldn't feel guilty because I know it didn't suffer in any way, nor did I take any conscious form of life away. Were it old enough to suffer, then I would feel bad, but I'd still do it if necessary.

~Maggot

DeamonD · Mar 13th 2009, 2:45am

LuklaAdvocate wrote:

I already did explain why, in the post directly above yours.

Teen Forums - View Single Post - Abortion?

See, there is a problem.
You are comparing a person who has committed something on purpose VS someone who has had this happen by accident, or force...........

Those are two completely separate worlds, and two completely separate responsibilities.

LuklaAdvocate · Mar 13th 2009, 3:20am

DeamonD wrote:

See, there is a problem.
You are comparing a person who has committed something on purpose VS someone who has had this happen by accident, or force...........

Those are two completely separate worlds, and two completely separate responsibilities.

First off, force is irrelevant, since I don't have any problems with abortion in the case of rape.

How do the two concepts differ in that regard? Both have situations where you have not experienced the same situation as the other person.

Abortion: Two people have sex, women gets pregnant, needs to make decision with her current situation in mind.

Felony: Person has his or her current situation, whatever it may be, and commits the crime.

Both have situations where you can't "walk in the other person's shoes." Somebody committing a crime on purpose is irrelevant; you cannot experience what he or she felt before or during the crime; as such, you cannot rightfully judge why the person committed the crime, or what effect the person's current situation(s) had on his or her decision making.

This is your logic.

You cannot experience the same situation as the person in question; therefore, how can you judge him or her?

Whether this be abortion, murder, rape, or perjury; it's all the same.

Ej4 · Mar 13th 2009, 3:38am

People are always going to want an abortion one way or another. By making it legal that allows professionals to do the procedure and that person is able to get psychological help if they want. If made illegal then we will see people doing crazy and stupid things.

DeamonD · Mar 13th 2009, 3:38am

First off, force is irrelevant, since I don't have any problems with abortion in the case of rape.

Ok, for the sake of the argument, lets assume that force is irrelevant. And you claim that abortion rape=ok, abortion by choice= not ok? That does not make sense. It is a choice of the person regardnless. In both cases, the woman does not want the child....be it pregnancy by accident or rape (in the case of rape, pregnancy can also be classified as "accidental")

How do the two concepts differ in that regard? Both have situations where you have not experienced the same situation as the other person.

*this will drift off* 1) They are different becase you can not compare someone who commints the crime on purpose, and someone who gets pregnant by accident. You do not commint a crime by "accient" nor to you plan to "accidently" get pregnant...

Both have situations where you can't "walk in the other person's shoes." Somebody committing a crime on purpose is irrelevant; you cannot experience what he or she felt before or during the crime; as such, you cannot rightfully judge why the person committed the crime, or what effect the person's current situation(s) had on his or her decision making.

Wrong.
How can you compare two things.....which are: In a case of a crime: Certain steps in your midn are taken> I want money > I will rob someone >/Action/>Result=conciously, purposly made descision by 1 individual who knew and planned for the possible consiquences.
b) Pregnancy: Accidental pregnancy>Neither party plans for pregnancy>/Action/>/Something goes wrong>Pregnancy.
in one case you have a planned even, in the other, you do not. That is why you can not compare the two.

You cannot experience the same situation as the person in question; therefore, how can you judge him or her.

And this is exactly what I am saying. No one can claim abortion as justified or unjustified simpyl because no one is ont he mothers shoes. So to say that abortion in a certain case is wrong, is immoral. However, abortion for the wrong reasons, is also immoral. So we are stuck in the middle and have no right to make a descision for anyone because at that point we are telling the mother what WE would do and hence, she should follow. Although it is fundumentaly a human way of thinking, ie: " I am right, everyone else is wrong", it still does not excuse those who try to push abortion as something that is illegal.

Whether this be abortion, murder, rape, or perjury; it's all the same

How is murder=abortion?
At this point you are pretty much saying that as soona s there something inside a woman, it is classified as a person.
So then where do you stop calling it a person? (I raised this point before)
Do you start calling it a person as soon as the egg is firtilized? When it has 2 cells? 100 cells? 1,000,000 cells? When the baby kicks or comes out?

captain_kurenai · Mar 13th 2009, 4:43am

DeamonD wrote:

Do you start calling it a person as soon as the egg is firtilized? When it has 2 cells? 100 cells? 1,000,000 cells? When the baby kicks or comes out?

I call it a person as soon as it develops a brain. Before then, it's still a bundle of cells that only know how to multiply

Share