Murder isn't black and white, there are varying degrees of what you think is murder.

Murder is defined as an unlawful killing with a malice afterthought (men's rea).

I don't think abortion fits that category.

If you think legal abortion is murder, then capital punishment (death sentences) is murder (yet it isn't, because it isn't unlawful nor is it done with malice afterthought) or killing in times of war or by an army is murder (yet it isn't considered as such, since it isn't unlawful or done with malice afterthought).

Abortion would be lawful, and done so to prevent a birth happening to a single parent or couple that are not ready to deal with the responsibilities of being a parent(s) or a circumstance where the baby would not have all of the benefits of care or in extreme cases, a circumstance where a baby would be born with health complications or deformities (mental or physical) or an event where a woman or man has been raped that results in an non-consentual pregnancy.

Of course, for practical reasons, there should be a limit on how far a pregnancy can go before abortion is not optional.

But there should be a choice, under lawful circumstances.

Both the potential mother and father should have a say in whether abortion takes place, as they both (disregarding rape) either failed in their responsibility of being protective or went into the act with consent. If there's only one say in it, than that person should not expect the other person to provide support for the child after the birth.

that's just my opinion, do i think it should be illegal tho... absolutely not.
just because abortion is made illegal doesn't mean that it will stop it from happening. Women will find other ways of aborting the child, ways which are unsafe and much more dangerous than the current abortion procedures
That being said i do feel that third trimester abortions should be illegal due to the fact that studies have been proven that the baby or fetus can feel pain... and for those of you who are unaware of the third trimester abortion procedure i highly recommend you do a little research... i will warn you however that what you come across is disturbing and happens everyday... look into that and then tell me how you feel about it

abortion is wrong under most circumstances, if the baby is harshly threatening the mother's life then I believe its ok otherwise it is wrong. the mother should give birth to the baby and if she doesn't want it then she can put it up for adoption

not bad

Abortions are not murder, and to think so is idiotic. 12 weeks is the legal limit that you can get an abortion, no later.

Personally its a woman's choice whether she has an abortion or not and of course it can be justified! A major point would be rape victims, if I had been raped I couldn't handle raising a rapists child.
Most women have their reasons, some don't have the money to look after themselves never mind a child.

On the other hand I resent people who have no such reason and are just careless with contraception.

i agree

I guess im pro-choice on abortion
I almost got one myself but when they did the ultrasound to see how far along i was & i heard and saw her heart beat i couldnt bring myself to even think about aborting her.
I think the only time someone should get an abortion is if they are raped or their life is at risk.
Everybody knows the risks of having sex without any kind of birth control. & if they decide to risk it anyways they.should have to deal with the end results.

---------- Post added at 12:57 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:56 AM ----------

I guess im pro-choice on abortion
I almost got one myself but when they did the ultrasound to see how far along i was & i heard and saw her heart beat i couldnt bring myself to even think about aborting her.
I think the only time someone should get an abortion is if they are raped or their life is at risk.
Everybody knows the risks of having sex without any kind of birth control. & if they decide to risk it anyways they.should have to deal with the end results.

The thing is, no one should describe having a child as "having to deal with the end results"... that implies a sort of resentment to the human life you brought into this world. Without care and affection, that child likely will become just as fucked up as the stupid mother who mistakenly had her. Abortion is a mature decision made by mature people who understand that, while they have made mistakes, they are able to put a new foot forward and do something great with their lives rather than spend time wallowing in self pity and remorse because of an unwanted pregnancy.

Wasnt trying to come off that way
But the end result of unsafe sex is a baby
& everybody knows that.
I dont resent my daughter at all i had to give up a lot to have her
But she is the best part of my life

But in the end if people have unsafe sex they should be ready to handle the responsabilities that come with unsafe sex & if they arent they should be using protection

---------- Post added at 11:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:02 PM ----------

Wasnt trying to come off that way
But the end result of unsafe sex is a baby
& everybody knows that.
I dont resent my daughter at all i had to give up a lot to have her
But she is the best part of my life

But in the end if people have unsafe sex they should be ready to handle the responsabilities that come with unsafe sex & if they arent they should be using protection

Well, I'm like you haha.
I just go by own beliefs, but I don't think you'll find anyone who's more AGAINST abortion than me!

I was WELL shocked by this poll haha ! I thought everyone was going to think it was wrong too! Guess I was wrong haha xD

But I really am SO SO SO against it, I understand circumstances!
Like, if you got raped .. or didn't have enough things to be able to provide for the child and give it a good start into this world.

But there's always adoption! I have nothing at all against adoption, I'm all for that :')!
Just NEVER abortion, ever!
I know obviously it isn't a full grown baby in there yet .. but it's still a little bubba at the end of the day, and you're murdering it .. when it didn't ask to be born.

I proper respect everyone elses opions and views though :')!

Okay what we do is, we get 5 couples,

2 that wanted to keep the baby but couldn't, and 2 that didnt want the baby and also 1 couple that kept their baby.

So you have a couple that wanted to keep a baby but had to put up for adoption,
Same as above,but had to abort it.

Then you have a couple that wanted to put the kid up for adoption,
and one that wanted to abort their baby.

You take the 4 kids from before and let them meet the 5th kid, the baby of the couple that kept their baby.

Then we ask them how they all feel and learn from that.

Ahhh...a debate specific section. I feel at home already.

Let us begin, shall we? If something I say has already been said in this thread, forgive me, I did not read through the thread.


When it comes to abortion, there is only one logical stance to take. First of all, to say abortion is okay under "certain circumstances" is ridiculous. The entire basis of the anti-abortion stance (which this argument of "certain circumstances" encases) is that the life of the fetus is sacred, and therefore, needs protecting. However, when the same people who oppose abortion then concede it in cases of rape or threat to the mother, at what point does the fetus' life no longer become sacred? Where is the magic shift? If the fetus is sacred, it is sacred, and it's life must be preserved at any cost; even the cost of the mother's life. In the case of abortion, to try and give middle ground is hypocritical.

Which leaves us with only two options; total support and total opposition. The logical stance to take is, of course, support. Why?

Consider for a moment this analogy. Let us imagine I am dying, and need a new liver to live. At no point do I have any right to force you down and take your liver against your will. Or let us suppose a less deadly example. Say I need a blood transfusion. The point is, without using your body in some way, I would die. At no point would I have any right to have you strapped down and have blood forcefully taken from your veins and stored for my use, to your detriment, for my benefit.

Why is this?

Because you posses something known as bodily sovereignty. Power and control over the happenings of your body. It is the same reason why rape is illegal; no one has an inherent right to use your body against your will.

So if we consider the fetus, the growing child, we see now that any argument about biology becomes irrelevant. If the fetus is human, than it is subject to the same rules and regulations regarding bodily sovereignty. It has no inherent right to the mother's body, and the mother, if she so chooses, reserves the right to remove the fetus by any means necessary. Unfortunately, the only means available at this point in time is abortion. As tragic as that is...it is simply reality.

And if the fetus is not human?

Then there should be no qualms about killing what is the equivalent of a biological parasite in the first place.

The Chaos Heart, I challenge your post's logic.

Like you, I love debate, and quite agree with you that a debate forum feels like home.

When it comes to abortion there is only one morally acceptable stance. That is to be 100% pro-life at all times. I am pro-life because I believe with absolute certainty that every human being has dignity. By that I mean every human person deserves respect, and has individual, unalienable rights, INCLUDING the rights to live, have liberty, and peruse happiness. However, these rights have limits. For example, a man is not free to rape a woman, under his right to peruse happiness. Humans have the right to do what they want, but that right STOPS, when an action hurts another person. Most people share this viewpoint, which allows for some common ground in the abortion debate.

Perhaps you don't realize the depth of your arguments. Let me delve into this a bit.

"Say I need a blood transfusion. The point is, without using your body in some way, I would die. At no point would I have any right to have you strapped down and have blood forcefully taken from your veins and stored for my use, to your detriment, for my benefit.
"Because you posses something known as bodily sovereignty. Power and control over the happenings of your body. It is the same reason why rape is illegal; no one has an inherent right to use your body against your will."

Clearly, your point is that your body is your own, and no one has a right to do use your body, or hurt your body, without your permission. Even if "using your body against your will" would save some one's life.

A woman has no right to force some one to donate a liver to her when she needs a new one, even if having no liver would kill her. This is because forcibly taking a liver would be using the victims body against their will, which is a horrific offense. In the same way, a woman has no right to kill an unborn child, even if failing to do so could cause complications, because doing so would violate the child's right to control what happens to her body.

Note 1) This argument forbids abortion!!!!! You simply have to turn it around. Like this.

"Abortion is wrong because the unborn child posses something known as bodily sovereignty. Power and control over the happenings of your body. No one has an inherent right to harm another's body against their will, and unborn children do not have a will to be harmed. Even when not having an abortion would cause complications. A woman has no right to force some one to donate a liver to her when she needs a new one, even if having no liver would kill her. This is because forciblely taking a liver would be using the victims body against their will, which is a horrific offense. In the same way, a woman has no right to kill an unborn child, even if failing to do so could cause complications, because doing so would violate the child's right to control what happens to her body."

Note 2) This argument acts as if absence of abortion access can cause maternal death. This is completely false. Only 1% of pregnancies pose risk to the life of the mother. The pro-life response to a tragic situation like this is simple. When the mother's life is threatened, because she like the baby, has a right to live, it is completely pro-life to deliver the baby. Here the mother is saved, and with today's technology, which will undoubtedly keep advancing, the child may have a chance at survival as well. If the child does not make it, it is a tragic but unintentional occurence. Because the death of babies delivered before viability is an unintentional second effect of a lifesaving premature induced delivery, these procedures are both moral and pro-life. Funerals for these young children would be appropriate.

Note 3) It is absurd to compare pregnancy to being forcibly strapped down while blood is drawn, In 97% of pregnancies, the sexual act was voluntary. By volunteering to have sex, a woman is accepting that:

a) all birth control methods, even when used properly, can fail, and
b) by consenting to participate in the sexual act, a woman is accepting that should she become pregnant, she will have the responsibility of carrying a child to term

So absurdity aside, considering we are not talking about a pregnancy that came from rape, this would be a better analogy between pregnancy and blood donation.

A woman places her name in a raffle basket [has sex]. In exchange for putting her name in the raffle, she gets a cash prize [pleasure from the sexual act]. But should her name be drawn [should pregnancy occur], she has to donate blood to so-and-so [incubate the unborn child she consented to carry until birth, asfter which she can adopt out, unless the pregnancy is life threatening] . A woman can decrease the chance that her name gets drawn, by buying several blank tickets [using birth control], but this is no guarantee that her name won't be drawn. Should the woman's name be drawn from the raffle [should pregnancy occur], the woman will have to deal with some minor side effects of being a blood donor, like weakness [morning sickness]. But she will only be subject non-fatal complications [non-fatal pregnancy], always with the support of doctors and counslers, free of charge [free pregnancy care is available to women through pro-life pregnancy care centers, and adoption agencies]. If donating blood becomes fatal, the mother will receive a blood transfusion [if pregnancy becomes fatal, the child will be delivered, without being harmed].




---------- Post added at 04:19 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:18 AM ----------

Oh. Fuck.

Ish,
I'm not trying to play the bad cop here, but would you please keep the swearing down to a minimum? I find it offensive. Thank you.
Bryn

Who gives a fuck if you find it offensive?

Get used to it.