Europeans...

RollinRightInuit · May 4th 2010, 10:25pm

I've actually got to agree with Jack here. While immigrants can benefit the economy in some ways, and some bring money with them, a lot of them emmigrate initially to find work. So when they come to other countries, such as the UK and Ireland, they get employment because they work easier than we do because generally they will work for less money, and I don't know about the UK, but over here we've gotten a reputation for being lazy and laid-back about things, whereas Eastern Europeans have a reputation for being proficient and hard-working, so even if we are hard workers, a lot of the time they'll get a job ahead of an Irish person. As such, it is near impossible to actually get a job here these days, and more and more people are being laid off and made redundant each day, and unemployment rates are rocketing.

As a result, we are now one of the most indebted countries in Europe, they're bringing back full fees for colleges, which will mean more drop-outs, and as such, more unemployed Irish people who are not in full-time education, and thus more people on the dole, and higher taxes all round yay, which will lead to more people being made redundant, and we come full circle

So basically, we're screwed.

So yeah, like Jack said, I'm not being racist, but in Ireland anyway, immigrants aren't really holding the country together, if anything they're adding to the problem. And the UK is probably in a similar situation.

username #88 · May 5th 2010, 6:13am

:rofl:

Princesa · May 5th 2010, 8:08am

I truly do not know where to begin with these replies. I maybe have to ask you where you are researching your information? I would suggest that maybe you are reading some very right-wing newspapers!

Mr Jack wrote:

Well I don't agree.

Not to sound like a racist, (because I'm not.) But to claim that we need all the immigrants in our country makes no sense. Workers from all over the E.U. Famously, Polish and Romanian flock to the UK in hopes of finding a better life (1) or whatnot. Now this puts strain on our economy in two main factors.

These workers replace our own, in agreements to work cheaply for the same job. (2) Causing rates of unemployment to sky rocket (3), which means that more families are put onto income support, claiming job benefits. Now the government then is forced to raise taxes/cut the money from elsewhere. For example, The NHS or Education (4).

Secondly, the people still in jobs in Britain are going to be taxed even more highly than otherwise, to pay for the housing and the keep of these immigrants (5). Regardless whether or not they are here legally (6).

How are you going to rent a house? HOW, are you going to buy our products. HOW DO YOU PAY FOR EDUCATION?... Do you not see, money isn't magical that gets delivered to you out of thin air. If you receive money from where ever. In turn that stops someone else, somewhere else in the world from recieving that money.
Banks can't just keep printing money. That's what got us into the whole mess in the first place.

No offence, but I think you have just believe what you have said, is true because you don't actually live here yourself.

If you still think I'm wrong. Then tell me, why! (7)

RollinRightInuit wrote:

I've actually got to agree with Jack here. While immigrants can benefit the economy in some ways, and some bring money with them (8), a lot of them emmigrate initially to find work (9). So when they come to other countries, such as the UK and Ireland, they get employment because they work easier than we do because generally they will work for less money (10), and I don't know about the UK, but over here we've gotten a reputation for being lazy (11) and laid-back about things, whereas Eastern Europeans have a reputation for being proficient and hard-working (12), so even if we are hard workers, a lot of the time they'll get a job ahead of an Irish person (13). As such, it is near impossible to actually get a job here these days, and more and more people are being laid off and made redundant each day, and unemployment rates are rocketing (3).

As a result, we are now one of the most indebted countries in Europe (14), they're bringing back full fees for colleges, which will mean more drop-outs (15), and as such, more unemployed Irish people who are not in full-time education, and thus more people on the dole, and higher taxes all round yay (16), which will lead to more people being made redundant, and we come full circle So basically, we're screwed.

So yeah, like Jack said, I'm not being racist, but in Ireland anyway, immigrants aren't really holding the country together, if anything they're adding to the problem. And the UK is probably in a similar situation (17).

(1) - Are you aware that Poland and Romania are not third-world countries? They are not African states in which soldiers are patrolling with guns and the population needs to beg for money and walk for maybe 10 miles to collect drinking water, they are free market economies. Poland especially currently has one of the strongest economies in Europe, which will become much more stronger when they are to join the Euro in 2012. Also, you say they are "flocking"? May you please supply me with the source of your information regarding immigration figures to the UK from Eastern Europe. You seem to suggest that maybe there is nobody left in Poland!

(2) - There is a national minimum wage in the UK. An employer cannot pay below this. An English or Irish carpenter, for example, has no God-offered right to earn £60.000 per year. If you required something to be built and one person offered to do this for £1.000 and another offered you an identical service for £500, which are you choosing? Many people have complained about the prices of things and about how expensive Britain is, and yet somebody is making your cost of living cheaper and you are complaining more? This is very strange. Also, I am not sure there has been even one example of an immigrant worker "replacing" a native worker. If an employer was to replace any worker for reasons of saving money (of course this does not include people made redundant) then he could be in a lot of trouble for breaking the law.

(3) - The UK has very low unemployment at this time. The current rate of unemployment in your country is higher than it has been in the past, but is still very low compared to many countries. Also you are maybe suggesting that it is workers for example like supermarket workers who are now unemployed? A lot of unemployment can be found in the banking and investment area, and this would be able to blame more the mistakes made in America which caused the current global recession more than immigration. The thought that workers from Poland and Romania caused the world's banks to collapse is a very funny idea!

(4) - Government subsidies such as these have their own seperate budget. Money spent by your government on benefits to poor families will have none effect on NHS.

(5) - I actually laughed very loud at this! Again maybe I could suggest that your source for this is a right-wing newspaper?! Do you truly think that every immigrant who enters your country is given a free house by the government? This is crazy! If an immigrant worker recieves any benefit it is only equal to what a UK worker would recieve, and they must also meet the sime requirements, which are very strict! And this I will add to by also saying...

(6) - ...illegal immigrants recieve nothing!!!! How are they supposed to claim money from a state that does not even know they are existing in this country?! Please maybe think about your sentences before you type them!

(7) - I have tried many times to write a response to this, and each time it is sounding like I am complaining of the British people. So as I do not wish for people to think of me as racist I will not answer this, as I do not wish to put in jeopardy my teenhut membership. If you wish me to I will try my best to answer it, but I am unsure how clear I can be.

(8) - Maybe I can suggest that all immigrants bring money with them? Otherwise how will they eat? And when they eat, they are spending money in your supermarkets, contributing to your economy...

(9) - Again maybe I can suggest that people are not emigrating to be unemployed?! I am sure that unless a person has retired from work of course they will be looking for an employment.

(10) - May I please refer you back to point (3)?

(11) - Do you think maybe there could be some reasons for this reputation? Even in Catalunya it is always said that the English are very lazy!

(12) - Again maybe do you think there is a reason for this reputation?! Imagine you are an immigrant. You have lived in Poland through communistic times, and have lived in a not attractive tower block, and you had to queue for sometimes days to recieve an issued ration of bread or meat. Suddenly, communism falls, and you begin to watch your company rebuild. Now maybe 20 years later, your government signs a treaty which means you can now live in London, or Milan, or Barcelona, or Lisbon, or Paris - wow!! You will wake up every morning and eat pan au chocolat near to the Eiffel Tower, or spend your evenings maybe eating tapas by the sea, and all which you have to do is work very hard for 8 hours each day, for 5 days per week? That is amazing! People emigrate for many hundreds of reasons, but all are chasing their dreams. Sadly it seems that many English people do not have dreams, and can only always find things to complain about, which is very sad.

(13) - This is nonsense, an employer will always hire a person who will be able to do the job best for them. The idea that somebody could be hired because of a reputation of that persons country is absurd. It is also illegal for an employer to discriminate for the reasons of nationality, as I am sure you are aware. I am afraid that it is a very easy excuse to say "I did not get this job because they wanted to employ somebody Polish", instead of maybe facing the reality that perhaps you were not the right person in the employers eyes.

(14) - I am sure Greece and Spain will not agree with this.

(15) - Why will it mean this? Student fees are funded by loans, which are repaid only when somebody can afford to repay them, and usually at very low interest rates. If somebody has a dream to educate themselves the idea that maybe they will let money stop them doing this is crazy. Again, perhaps this is a convenient excuse for people to be lazy and not work hard for their future.

(16) - If a country is in recession, as many are, then the last thing that a government will do is raise taxes. If the taxes are changed at all, they will be made lower to help the situation. This is very basic economics.

(17) - I hope maybe by alerting you to some of the facts instead of something you may have read in a bad newspaper, you will begin to understand a little bit more about what immigration can begin, and also some advantages to your country having signed the Schengen agreement.

Finally, may I just say I am not giving an opinion of somebody different to you. In Barcelona we currently have 27% unemployment (do you still think England has high unemployment numbers?!), and we have also one of the highest rates of immigration in Europe. The Spanish economy is on the edge of collapsing in the same way the Greek economy has gone. So it would be easy for me to judge immigrants, but I am a realistic person, and I will not be doing this.

plax77 · May 5th 2010, 8:13am

When I went to Europe I noticed that the really populous places were really culturally diverse, but as you went further and further away from the big cities the more indigenous the people were.

Mr. Jakoy · May 5th 2010, 9:32am

Princesa wrote:

I truly do not know where to begin with these replies. I maybe have to ask you where you are researching your information? I would suggest that maybe you are reading some very right-wing newspapers!

(1) - Are you aware that Poland and Romania are not third-world countries? They are not African states in which soldiers are patrolling with guns and the population needs to beg for money and walk for maybe 10 miles to collect drinking water, they are free market economies. Poland especially currently has one of the strongest economies in Europe, which will become much more stronger when they are to join the Euro in 2012. Also, you say they are "flocking"? May you please supply me with the source of your information regarding immigration figures to the UK from Eastern Europe. You seem to suggest that maybe there is nobody left in Poland!

Well I am happy that their economy is so great, but ask yourself, why is it so great? I'll tell you why, it's because they have had 1 MILLION polish citizens moving to the UK. I didn't just pull this figure out of thin air. This was a poll run in Poland back in the summer of 2006. (Four years ago! Many claim this figure has now doubled.) Where they themselves calculated this. Now these workers arrive seeking employment, and with it a chance of a new start in a land of increased opportunity, or the funds to kick start businesses or property purchases back in poland, (hence their super awesome economy.) otherwise beyond their means.

I find it funny that you insist on seeing my sources. I have actual sources. Also I live here! witnessing it first hand. Where are your sources?

Also, "Are you aware that Poland and Romania are not third-world countries?" Yes, why do you think they can come work here so easily?

Princesa wrote:

(2) - There is a national minimum wage in the UK. An employer cannot pay below this. An English or Irish carpenter, for example, has no God-offered right to earn £60.000 per year. If you required something to be built and one person offered to do this for £1.000 and another offered you an identical service for £500, which are you choosing? Many people have complained about the prices of things and about how expensive Britain is, and yet somebody is making your cost of living cheaper and you are complaining more? This is very strange. Also, I am not sure there has been even one example of an immigrant worker "replacing" a native worker. If an employer was to replace any worker for reasons of saving money (of course this does not include people made redundant) then he could be in a lot of trouble for breaking the law.

This is just ridiculous. Can you not see that when immigrants come over, they have VERY different lifestyles, to other citizens of the UK. They often stay in flats, with plenty of other people, in their same position. More importantly, they have ONE person to support. Themselves. Compare these people to the English plumber they have just replaced, who had 3 kids and a wife to support at home. Somebody who cannot live on 500 pounds a month. People who have mortgages to pay! Now what happens when this dear old plumber can't pay his mortgage? Well the cumulation of said plumber, plus the thousands of other families in the same position, cannot pay their bills and their mortgage. So in turn the banks would go bankrupt. Oh, and what happened over the last year?

Starting with Northern Rock in February 2008, 38 international banks across the world declared themselves bankrupt. 11 of which being in the UK. Now I'm not bold enough, to claim immigration is the only explanation for the banks and even the entire credit crunch. BUT it was a major factor!

Princesa wrote:

(3) - The UK has very low unemployment at this time. The current rate of unemployment in your country is higher than it has been in the past, but is still very low compared to many countries. Also you are maybe suggesting that it is workers for example like supermarket workers who are now unemployed? A lot of unemployment can be found in the banking and investment area, and this would be able to blame more the mistakes made in America which caused the current global recession more than immigration. The thought that workers from Poland and Romania caused the world's banks to collapse is a very funny idea!

Read above^^

Ever watched the film, 'The Butterfly Effect'? If not, maybe you should. it might give you a better understanding on how the worlds economy works.

Princesa wrote:

(4) - Government subsidies such as these have their own seperate budget. Money spent by your government on benefits to poor families will have none effect on NHS.

Well, for a start these were examples. But still, you're totally wrong. Yes, the Government have their separate budget. But what happens when the country runs into all the debt we are currently in. From figures published February 18th 2010, UK public sector net debt was £848.5 billion. You really think our Government can just magic this money out of thin air? No. It comes from BUDGET CUTS! Which if you have seen the election campaigns going on in the UK right now, is pretty much the only topic the political parties talk about. What to cut? How much to cut? When to cut? etc. etc.

How else do you expect our country to dig itself out of the shitstorm we are in right now? Think about it.

Princesa wrote:

(5) - I actually laughed very loud at this! Again maybe I could suggest that your source for this is a right-wing newspaper?! Do you truly think that every immigrant who enters your country is given a free house by the government? This is crazy! If an immigrant worker recieves any benefit it is only equal to what a UK worker would recieve, and they must also meet the sime requirements, which are very strict! And this I will add to by also saying...

I'm glad I could be such a great source of humour for yourself. But do you have any idea what you are talking about? Listen, I will spell it out nice and clear for you. You say, "If an immigrant worker recieves any benefit it is only equal to what a UK worker would receive." REGARDLESS of whether or not they receive MORE or LESS or EQUAL money, from OUR government is IRRELEVANT!

THEY ARE STILL CLAIMING BENEFITS FROM OUR GOVERNMENT, LIVING OFF THE TAX PAYER AND GENERALLY FUCKING US OVER EVEN MORE. We have enough people on benefits as it is. We do not need more. There, understand now? Hope you laughed some more. :nono:

Princesa wrote:

(6) - ...illegal immigrants recieve nothing!!!! How are they supposed to claim money from a state that does not even know they are existing in this country?! Please maybe think about your sentences before you type them!

Stop trying to show people up with stupid remarks like this one. Quite clearly, the immigrant here illegally do not receive money directly from the Government. So ask yourself HOW DO THEY EARN MONEY? It's by working here illegally. Taking up jobs BELOW THE MINIMUM WAGE. So they get hired over the local guy. Really you need to think before you type. So again, what happens when 'the local guy' looses his job? Answer it for me! God knows I've said it enough by myself.

Princesa wrote:

(7) - I have tried many times to write a response to this, and each time it is sounding like I am complaining of the British people. So as I do not wish for people to think of me as racist I will not answer this, as I do not wish to put in jeopardy my teenhut membership. If you wish me to I will try my best to answer it, but I am unsure how clear I can be.

Okay, let me just say something here. I hope everyone that reads this thread, will be mature enough, and objective enough to know that, there is no racism intended by anyone in this thread. I know personally I will not be offended by anyone's opinion on British people. As long as they are not just trolling looking to offend. I really believe that you need to re-think your strategy. I think that living in Barcelona, although super cool, kind of limits your ability to make an informed decision, especially since I believe you to be bias, and condoning your actions, come this summer, since you want to come work here. Well that's just yet another job someone that lives here can't get. But by all means, come on in. That's the open door policy currently allowed, so get it while it's hot.

I could go on to argue with every single point you have attempted to argue with Lisa about. But she could easily do that herself. So I'll leave it to her.

Princesa · May 5th 2010, 10:48am

Mr Jack wrote:

I think that living in Barcelona, although super cool, kind of limits your ability to make an informed decision, especially since I believe you to be bias, and condoning your actions, come this summer, since you want to come work here. Well that's just yet another job someone that lives here can't get. But by all means, come on in. That's the open door policy currently allowed, so get it while it's hot.

I could go on to argue with every single point you have attempted to argue with Lisa about. But she could easily do that herself. So I'll leave it to her.

Thank you for your points

I think maybe we will have to agree that we have very different opinons! I will mention again, that I think because I am living in Barcelona I can comment very informed as many Catalans are in the same position as English people. Of course we have our borders open, so we have many people moving to Barcelona from all of the EU who think living in this city would be super cool (I like this description!), but also we have many immigrants from North of Africa, such as Algeria, Morocco and Tunisia, and also many thousands of Chinese immigrants. I have said previously that unemployment in Barcelona is currently at 27% and the Spanish economy is on the edge of making an amazing collapse like the Greek economy has just done. So I feel I am well placed to also comment on such matters as our countries are in a very similar position. I am not sure that my working in England for 7 weeks will make a difference, except maybe of course I will pay my tax, and I will not ask for even one penny of this money back. If somebody in England seriously needs to work as a waitress for 7 weeks this summer so desperate then they are welcome to take my job in Barcelona for this time :rolleyes:

I will not reply to your comments as I feel we could be making posts to each other for many weeks on this subject and still not agreeing! So I will say just thank you for the debate and for letting me hear the opinions of somebody else. It is always interesting to speak to people with different opinions on a wide range of topics. I would only mention that your word "attempted" in your last sentence is very unfair. You have posted your opinions, and I did not agree with them. I have posted my opinions, and you did not agree with them. This does not make my opinions any less valuable, or mean they are less valid. Also this does not mean that my opinions do not count or it does not mean that I have only "attempted" to make my points.

RollinRightInuit · May 5th 2010, 12:01pm

Princesa wrote:

(3) - The UK has very low unemployment at this time. The current rate of unemployment in your country is higher than it has been in the past, but is still very low compared to many countries. Also you are maybe suggesting that it is workers for example like supermarket workers who are now unemployed? A lot of unemployment can be found in the banking and investment area, and this would be able to blame more the mistakes made in America which caused the current global recession more than immigration. The thought that workers from Poland and Romania caused the world's banks to collapse is a very funny idea!

(8) - Maybe I can suggest that all immigrants bring money with them? Otherwise how will they eat? And when they eat, they are spending money in your supermarkets, contributing to your economy...

(9) - Again maybe I can suggest that people are not emigrating to be unemployed?! I am sure that unless a person has retired from work of course they will be looking for an employment.

(10) - May I please refer you back to point (3)?

(11) - Do you think maybe there could be some reasons for this reputation? Even in Catalunya it is always said that the English are very lazy!

(12) - Again maybe do you think there is a reason for this reputation?! Imagine you are an immigrant. You have lived in Poland through communistic times, and have lived in a not attractive tower block, and you had to queue for sometimes days to recieve an issued ration of bread or meat. Suddenly, communism falls, and you begin to watch your company rebuild. Now maybe 20 years later, your government signs a treaty which means you can now live in London, or Milan, or Barcelona, or Lisbon, or Paris - wow!! You will wake up every morning and eat pan au chocolat near to the Eiffel Tower, or spend your evenings maybe eating tapas by the sea, and all which you have to do is work very hard for 8 hours each day, for 5 days per week? That is amazing! People emigrate for many hundreds of reasons, but all are chasing their dreams. Sadly it seems that many English people do not have dreams, and can only always find things to complain about, which is very sad.

(13) - This is nonsense, an employer will always hire a person who will be able to do the job best for them. The idea that somebody could be hired because of a reputation of that persons country is absurd. It is also illegal for an employer to discriminate for the reasons of nationality, as I am sure you are aware. I am afraid that it is a very easy excuse to say "I did not get this job because they wanted to employ somebody Polish", instead of maybe facing the reality that perhaps you were not the right person in the employers eyes.

(14) - I am sure Greece and Spain will not agree with this.

(15) - Why will it mean this? Student fees are funded by loans, which are repaid only when somebody can afford to repay them, and usually at very low interest rates. If somebody has a dream to educate themselves the idea that maybe they will let money stop them doing this is crazy. Again, perhaps this is a convenient excuse for people to be lazy and not work hard for their future.

(16) - If a country is in recession, as many are, then the last thing that a government will do is raise taxes. If the taxes are changed at all, they will be made lower to help the situation. This is very basic economics.

(17) - I hope maybe by alerting you to some of the facts instead of something you may have read in a bad newspaper, you will begin to understand a little bit more about what immigration can begin, and also some advantages to your country having signed the Schengen agreement.

Finally, may I just say I am not giving an opinion of somebody different to you. In Barcelona we currently have 27% unemployment (do you still think England has high unemployment numbers?!), and we have also one of the highest rates of immigration in Europe. The Spanish economy is on the edge of collapsing in the same way the Greek economy has gone. So it would be easy for me to judge immigrants, but I am a realistic person, and I will not be doing this.

Ok, very sorry bout this, I don't like to start arguments, but some of this really pissed me off. So here we go, answers

8 - I meant bringing money in terms of contributing to the economy, bringing actual large amounts of money that they can use to help out. I don't expect people to have no cash whatsoever, otherwise how could they get here in the first place?

9 - I know people want jobs anyway, everyone wants jobs, but I was talking about people who can't get jobs in their own country and specifically emmigrate to find some here.

10, aka. 3 - Good for the UK, but I don't live there. Over here, the unemployment rate is pretty darn high, I know a lot of people personally who have been made redundant in the past couple of years, I lost y own job because the place I worked had to be shut down because they couldn't afford the space anymore, and no-one new has bought it in the two years since. I didn't say workers from foreign countries made our banks collapsed, I merely said they're not really helping, like other people insisted they were.

11 - This is the one that caused me to reply, actually. I am NOT English, and I do NOT appreciate being called English. The English invaded my country, essentially eliminated my native language, caused numerous wars, both international and civil, and are the reason for so many deaths in our history, I really, really do not like it when ignorant people decide we're all the same country over here, because we are not the same, at all. It's like mixing up New Zealand and Australia, or China and Japan, or the USA and Mexico, Spain and Portugal. You wouldn't talk to a Polish person and say "Yeah, but all you Germans have this reputation", so don't do it to us. And as for the lazy reputation, I never said there was no reason behind it, I'm sure there is, but I don't understand why we should be punished for people a generation back being deemed as lazy workers, because we're not even given a chance, not even by other Irish people, and it's disgusting.

12 - Yet again, I seem to have to say this - I AM NOT F***ING ENGLISH!!! And what you're describing there is pretty much my country for the past hundred years, up until the 90s, and it's where we're rapidly shooting back down to now, so don't pretend to know what it's like here if you've never been. Also I like how in your description of places to go, you didn't even mention here.

13 - Ok, first off, how would you know what is legal and illegal in my country? Secondly, they do actually employ based on the nationality a lot, I'm sorry if you think otherwise, but over here anyway, it is true. A lot of the time, if an employer has a choice between two people of equal suitability, he/she will choose a Polish worker over an Irish worker based solely on reputation. And I didn't say this had happened to me personally, so don't start telling me I'm not right for a job, you don't know me, or anything about me, so please don't try to personally insult me, you did enough of that by calling me English.

14 - Actually, it was released in news quite recently that we were the most indebted country in Europe, so try to get your facts straight there. I just said "one of" because I figured the way the world is going nowadays it was quite possible for someone to have become more indebted since then.

15 - Again, trust me on this, I am a student in my country, which I highly doubt you are since you don't even seem to know where my country is, and I know that a lot of people here have said they would not go to college, or would drop out, if fees were brought in, as they wouldn't be able to afford it. Sure you say they could get loans, which is a great idea for an already indebted country, more loans, but what are they going to use to repay those loans if they can't get jobs anywhere? Not to mention the point of bringing back fees is to get more money, so I can't imagine them giving us that money to pay them, that doesn't even make sense. I for one will not be able to afford to stay in college if they bring back fees soon, so there's my dreams gone (And no, I'm not English, so even by your whole twisted "English people don't have dreams" idea, I can still have them). And I have worked bloody hard to get here, so yet again I would like to ask you to refrain from personally insulting me. You have no idea how hard I have had to work to get where I am today.

16 - Actually, our government has already been raising taxes, several times actually, so why don't you go tell them they're idiots

Maybe they'll listen to you.

17 - Actually, if you look it up, you'll see that we're not actually Schengen countries, though apparently we "co-operate" with them(?), and don't try to blame me for this since that agreement was made before I was born.

And as for your last little closing point, I never mentioned England in my original post, and I actually specifically said I didn't know about the UK, and I'm pretty sure I never insinuated that any other countries didn't have it bad. You actually proved my point there though (My point being that immigrants aren't "holding the country together", not "immigrants are bad", because I never once said that, or anything like that), by saying that you've got one of the highest rates of immigration, and your economy is on the edge of collapse. Surely if immigration was holding together economies, yours would be being magically fixed right now. But it's not.

Now I'm not going to say everything I say is 100% correct and foolproof, because I'm not a bloody economist, I'm a teenager. You can't expect me to know everything, and I fully accept that I don't. But I think I know my country a little better than you do, and I would really appreciate it if you didn't keep insisting that I didn't (and like I said, it's called Ireland, look it up).

tethys · May 5th 2010, 2:43pm

i'd say that more than 95% of young people speak english in europe. a lot of people speak 2 foreign languages and i think we slovenians are on the top. we HAVE to study at least 2 foreign languages in high school and a lot of people study 3 foreign languages. i'd say we travel a lot across europe but it's definitely not like in US.

PotEl · May 5th 2010, 3:25pm

I'd like to make some points here. First of all,when I was talking about immigrants,I was talking about people coming from poorer countries with the hope of finding a better life. Not about economic immigrants. But about people who migrate because they just want to live in another country.

You said you are not racist. I do not mean to offend you,not at all,but how does saying that immigrants are the reason of high unemployment of British people not racist? Categorizing "foreign" and "local" people is racist,in my opinion.

"How are you going to rent a house? HOW, are you going to buy our products. HOW DO YOU PAY FOR EDUCATION?... Do you not see, money isn't magical that gets delivered to you out of thin air. If you receive money from where ever. In turn that stops someone else, somewhere else in the world from receiving that money."

Perhaps I will find a job,sure. But,I am not worthy of one,because I am not local? Do you think I will ask for less money,just because I am not from England? Or do you think that employers would hire me if I had less qualifications than any English person? As a student,and an 18 year old man,I would also most likely get money from my parents. Thus,I can rent a house,eat and go to college. And all the money I will get from my job,will also go into YOUR shops and YOUR government through taxes.

I also come from a country with a high rate of immigration. See this article for information,if you want. Immigration to Greece

I didn't mean to sound like I was attacking you,because I really wasn't. I was just trying to express my opinion. If I offended you by anything I said,please say so and I will immediately try to correct myself. I'd also like to see your thoughts about this.

~ Valentina ~ · May 5th 2010, 4:43pm

Well, I'm actually too lazy to read all the debate. But I guess it depends on people. I know people who never moved out of France as they're not rich enough or they just don't care about travelling...
When we go out of our country, we speak English most of the time. In Europe, learning English at school is compulsory. But a few people are very good at it

I'm only 16 but I went to England, Belgium, Switzerland, Germany (2 hours far from home by car), Luxembourg, Italy and Spain. It's not far, yeah, but it's still quiete expensive...
I would really like to study in the UK or in Ireland in few years. My sisters travel a lot, and one of them is actually studying in Hungary (cost of living is cheaper than in west Europe there) thanks to a sort of programm called Erasmus. It means you spend a year out of your country, wherever you want to in Europe

It's really cool

My sister told me they are also Americains who leave for studying in Europe thx to Erasmus

RollinRightInuit · May 5th 2010, 5:27pm

PotEl wrote:

I'd like to make some points here. First of all,when I was talking about immigrants,I was talking about people coming from poorer countries with the hope of finding a better life. Not about economic immigrants. But about people who migrate because they just want to live in another country.

You said you are not racist. I do not mean to offend you,not at all,but how does saying that immigrants are the reason of high unemployment of British people not racist? Categorizing "foreign" and "local" people is racist,in my opinion.

"How are you going to rent a house? HOW, are you going to buy our products. HOW DO YOU PAY FOR EDUCATION?... Do you not see, money isn't magical that gets delivered to you out of thin air. If you receive money from where ever. In turn that stops someone else, somewhere else in the world from receiving that money."

Perhaps I will find a job,sure. But,I am not worthy of one,because I am not local? Do you think I will ask for less money,just because I am not from England? Or do you think that employers would hire me if I had less qualifications than any English person? As a student,and an 18 year old man,I would also most likely get money from my parents. Thus,I can rent a house,eat and go to college. And all the money I will get from my job,will also go into YOUR shops and YOUR government through taxes.

I also come from a country with a high rate of immigration. See this article for information,if you want. Immigration to Greece

I didn't mean to sound like I was attacking you,because I really wasn't. I was just trying to express my opinion. If I offended you by anything I said,please say so and I will immediately try to correct myself. I'd also like to see your thoughts about this.

Is this directed at me or Jack? If it's me, I'm not racist, and I wasn't say immigrants are the reason for unemployment, I was just saying that the rate of immigration is not helping :p we're not getting any better because of it. Though since you said "British" I should just assume you meant Jack, but I felt I should clarify that

Techno Viking · May 5th 2010, 6:38pm

xNerRadx wrote:

Do Europeans often go and live in other European countries? I mean like, in the U.S. all states have the same primary language and what not and there isn't so much of a culture shock when you move to another state. I would imagine if you were Irish and you moved to Germany you'd be like... WTF?... I'm just curious on the subject btw. Enlighten me!

In the UK we don't move to other European nations to live very often. Certainly not as much as Americans would move from state to state anyway. The density of cultures in Europe is vastly more then the US. For example in the UK you could get in a car, drive for 45 minutes and be in an area where your local accent stood out. It's probably to do with the culture of the US being formed later than Europe and hence a time when travel and communication was faster. Also I hate to be anal but I hate the use of the word Europeans as if we are a small enough group to generalise anything on. Or when you ask an American where they are going on holiday and they reply "Europe!". If I told someone I was visiting "Asia!" I'd get a deserved slap in the face for my ignorance.

xyz123456 · May 5th 2010, 6:51pm

Techno Viking wrote:

Also I hate to be anal but I hate the use of the word Europeans as if we are a small enough group to generalise anything on. Or when you ask an American where they are going on holiday and they reply "Europe!".

This actually annoys me as well, but then again there does seem to be a more "unified" mindset amongst some...I noticed this quite a bit back when You-Know-Who was on Teen Hut. He always spoke of Europe as being a single, politically unified entity, wherein the citizens identify themselves firstly as Europeans, and their country of origin second. I remember him mocking some people on here for referring to themselves as "Americans" rather than "North Americans" or something like that.

But yes, I get annoyed with the over-general "Europe." "Hay guyz omg I'm going to Europe like, omg...over the summer LOL". I usually ask "Where? France? Spain? Italy? Austria? Germany? Greece? Poland? Belgium? Russia? Romania? England? Ireland? Scotland?"

Esmo · May 5th 2010, 7:09pm

Mr Jack wrote:

This was a poll run in Poland back in the summer of 2006. (Four years ago! Many claim this figure has now doubled.)

Who are the 'Many'? At any rate, immigration from eastern Europe to the UK has in fact been declining.

Mr Jack wrote:

I have actual sources. Also I live here! witnessing it first hand.

I haven't actually seen you leave any sources... As for the living-here argument, that's not necessarily an invalid source, especially when discussing your domestic issues with foreigners, but it's based off perceptions rather than fact, so is pretty shaky.

Mr Jack wrote:

This is just ridiculous. Can you not see that when immigrants come over, they have VERY different lifestyles, to other citizens of the UK. They often stay in flats, with plenty of other people, in their same position. More importantly, they have ONE person to support. Themselves. Compare these people to the English plumber they have just replaced, who had 3 kids and a wife to support at home. Somebody who cannot live on 500 pounds a month. People who have mortgages to pay! Now what happens when this dear old plumber can't pay his mortgage? Well the cumulation of said plumber, plus the thousands of other families in the same position, cannot pay their bills and their mortgage. So in turn the banks would go bankrupt. Oh, and what happened over the last year?

Woah, woah, woah. I'm not seeing your line of argument here. How do the immigrants prevent the plumber paying his mortgage? Just clarify.

Mr Jack wrote:

I'm glad I could be such a great source of humour for yourself. But do you have any idea what you are talking about? Listen, I will spell it out nice and clear for you. You say, "If an immigrant worker recieves any benefit it is only equal to what a UK worker would receive." REGARDLESS of whether or not they receive MORE or LESS or EQUAL money, from OUR government is IRRELEVANT!

THEY ARE STILL CLAIMING BENEFITS FROM OUR GOVERNMENT, LIVING OFF THE TAX PAYER AND GENERALLY FUCKING US OVER EVEN MORE. We have enough people on benefits as it is. We do not need more. There, understand now? Hope you laughed some more.

Is it okay for an immigrant to be on their entitled benefits if they're working?

Mr Jack wrote:

Well that's just yet another job someone that lives here can't get.

Or, if done legally, it's yet another job someone that lives here didn't earn.

Mr Jack, has it occured to you that immigration has been a defining feature of British culture since time immemorial? I can't say we've particularly suffered for it.

Banana · May 5th 2010, 7:51pm

this should be moved to debates section

---------- Post added at 07:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:46 PM ----------

oh and can I just say that the English culture has more people on benefits that non-english people

it kills me with embaraasment when people state that these 'immagrants' are taking 'our' jobs. You wana know why there are more non-european dotcors, dentists, engineers, lawyers etc? Because they have to work damn fucking hard to get into the country to study. You think they'll throw it all away and live on benefits?

The thing that reallyticks me is that do you think that people who are on benefits (english people here) who have been unemployed for a long time have even considered finding a job that not as good as what they believe to be worth?

Why aren't these people being bin men/women, or road sweepers? what's wrong with those jobs until they find something and move on up?
Oh that's right because these immagrants are 'taking' the jobs that no one wanted until they were being given to other people.

Mr. Jakoy · May 6th 2010, 1:18am

PotEl wrote:

You said you are not racist. I do not mean to offend you,not at all,but how does saying that immigrants are the reason of high unemployment of British people not racist? Categorizing "foreign" and "local" people is racist,in my opinion.

Read my words how you like, but I'm not being racist because I'm not attacking a race. Immigrants are not from Immigrantia. If you think I'm being racist, fair enough, I expected some people to jump on that band wagon, as soon as I mentioned the word "Immigrant"

Immigration into the United Kingdom is not the only reason for unemployment in our country. I never claimed it was. But since we were on the subject of moving around, and immigration already... Like it or not, it is one factor in the rates of unemployment being so high. Also just because the rates of unemployment have actually fallen by a small margin since the official end to the credit crunch, is no means to say the rates are still not extremely high. There are so many factors in relation to unemployment rates immigration just being one of them.

PotEl wrote:

Perhaps I will find a job,sure. But,I am not worthy of one,because I am not local? Do you think I will ask for less money,just because I am not from England? Or do you think that employers would hire me if I had less qualifications than any English person? As a student,and an 18 year old man,I would also most likely get money from my parents. Thus,I can rent a house,eat and go to college. And all the money I will get from my job,will also go into YOUR shops and YOUR government through taxes.

Being worthy of a job in a foreign country, over the people that have families to support, and have mortgages to pay. No I'm sorry, call me racist if it makes you feel better, but from what I've witnessed in my life, has lead me to this opinion. I have no idea what you personally would do, in terms of asking for more or less money. But from what i have seen over the 13 years my family has run a 25 bedroom hotel on the beach in the town I live. Now growing up, we used to have a staff base of about 10 staff members. Ranging from waiters, to kitchen staff, to the chambermaids. Now over the past few years, the English worker has become less frequent in this hotel, and have been replaced by workers from all over the E.U. Trust me guys, you don't need to tell me how hard they work because the majority of them are exceptional. Far more trustworthy than the average UK worker. But what I witness, is how all the workers, work so hard for this money. But when they receive their pay-checks, they send half of it over to their families back home. Abroad.

What a lovely sentiment. Being so unselfish to send half your hard earned money back to your less fortunate family members back home. But still, this is money being taken out of the UK economy. Right as we speak we have a very nice polish lady working here. She tells me her dreams of saving up all her money so she can return to Poland, to her daughter and husband. How they have big plans to set up a little store. How delightful.

PotEl wrote:

I didn't mean to sound like I was attacking you,because I really wasn't. I was just trying to express my opinion. If I offended you by anything I said,please say so and I will immediately try to correct myself. I'd also like to see your thoughts about this.

There is my thoughts. Don't worry about offending me. I don't take things personally.

Esmo wrote:

Who are the 'Many'? At any rate, immigration from eastern Europe to the UK has in fact been declining.

Yes, because it's election year.

Esmo wrote:

I haven't actually seen you leave any sources... As for the living-here argument, that's not necessarily an invalid source, especially when discussing your domestic issues with foreigners, but it's based off perceptions rather than fact, so is pretty shaky.

Pick up a newspaper.

Esmo wrote:

Woah, woah, woah. I'm not seeing your line of argument here. How do the immigrants prevent the plumber paying his mortgage? Just clarify.

Okay, How do people pay their mortgages? With money. How do people earn money? Through jobs. What happens if the same people loose their jobs, because immigrants that are technically harder working secure the same jobs.

Then... What happens when these immigrants don't spend their hard earned money, in the British economy. Instead, sending that same money back to their home country. So I know what you guys will say... "How can you claim that ALL immigrants, don't spend in the British economy, and send ALL their money, back home?"
I'm not. Of course not all of them do. But a large percentage certainly do. Even if you underestimate this at 10% of immigrants. That is still 10% more than if the money was originally earned by a GB citizen.

Esmo wrote:

Is it okay for an immigrant to be on their entitled benefits if they're working?

Or, if done legally, it's yet another job someone that lives here didn't earn.

I'm not going to try and claim what right, and what's wrong. Just explain to everyone where I'm coming from.

Esmo wrote:

Mr Jack, has it occured to you that immigration has been a defining feature of British culture since time immemorial? I can't say we've particularly suffered for it.

A defining fail, Yes.

Here's a source I was reading earlier.
BBC's take on Immigration.

I actually think that immigration is a great idea. But it's the moderation of such that is becoming the problem. A problem it has become. To much of any one thing, no matter how good, is bad.

LanaBanana wrote:

oh and can I just say that the English culture has more people on benefits that non-english people

Of course they do. This is the problem. But it isn't going to get solved by more foreign workers. No matter how much better you guys think they are. Let's get ourselves as a country sorted out first.

LanaBanana wrote:

it kills me with embaraasment when people state that these 'immagrants' are taking 'our' jobs. You wana know why there are more non-european dotcors, dentists, engineers, lawyers etc? Because they have to work damn fucking hard to get into the country to study. You think they'll throw it all away and live on benefits?

They are taking jobs that would otherwise come to us. At the end of the day half of them are sending our money out of the country, and contributing little or none in the way of our economy. It really ticks me off when people are just so blind and would happy to just sit back, and watch our country burn. Strong words, but it's true.

LanaBanana wrote:

The thing that reallyticks me is that do you think that people who are on benefits (english people here) who have been unemployed for a long time have even considered finding a job that not as good as what they believe to be worth?

Of course there are a minority of lazy asses that live on the dole with no intention of ever finding a job. But there are ALOT more people that can't find a real salary paid job for the life of them. People I know personally, and nationwide.

LanaBanana wrote:

Why aren't these people being bin men/women, or road sweepers? what's wrong with those jobs until they find something and move on up?
Oh that's right because these immagrants are 'taking' the jobs that no one wanted until they were being given to other people.

I thought they were The Doctors? and the Dentists? Oh that's right, they're everywhere.

---------- Post added at 12:18 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:11 AM ----------

Example.

Princesa wrote:

I have recently found out I will be again working this summer in England, I was there for the end of last summer too.

You really think Catalan, is going to put all her money that she earns this summer, back into the economy? Personally I doubt it. Save up money in England for the summer. Return home and spend the riches.

xNerRadx · May 6th 2010, 1:26am

Never would've thought this would turn into a debate lol

xyz123456 · May 6th 2010, 7:12am

LanaBanana wrote:

oh and can I just say that the English culture has more people on benefits that non-english people
it kills me with embarrassment when people state that these 'immigrants' are taking 'our' jobs. You wanna know why there are more non-european doctors, dentists, engineers, lawyers etc? Because they have to work damn fucking hard to get into the country to study. You think they'll throw it all away and live on benefits?

The thing that really ticks me is that do you think that people who are on benefits (english people here) who have been unemployed for a long time have even considered finding a job that not as good as what they believe to be worth?

Why aren't these people being bin men/women, or road sweepers? what's wrong with those jobs until they find something and move on up?
Oh that's right because these immigrants are 'taking' the jobs that no one wanted until they were being given to other people.

Yep, that's EXACTLY what happens when welfare is given out in copious amounts. If it's more attractive to live on free government money than it is to work, people will do exactly that. Then when the immigrants flood in and snap up all the jobs that the freefags decided they didn't want, everyone gets all xenophobic and the complaining starts. "Hurr durr, beaners are stealing our jobs! Oh noes!" I say STFU...*you* were the one who chose to live off taxpayer's money while you were sat at home watching American Idol and eating Ho-Ho's, while the immigrants were more than happy to work as painters, bricklayers, janitors, etc.

Welfare states can't economy.

Princesa · May 6th 2010, 11:58am

Mr Jack wrote:

You really think Catalan, is going to put all her money that she earns this summer, back into the economy? Personally I doubt it. Save up money in England for the summer. Return home and spend the riches.

I am saving money for my education, I am not "spending my riches" in any country. I could easily remain in Barcelona this summer and earn a same amount of money (perhaps more, as it is possible to earn more gratuities when there are many tourists in the city), however, if I do this I do not have the experience of seeing my niece for 7 weeks, I do not have the opportunity to practice more my English. When I have finished my compulsory education at the age of 18 I wish to study at University. I wish to study at either Edinburgh or Cambridge University. These are both in Britain. Therefore I will be spending many thousands of pounds in tuition fees in your economy. Of course in this time I will be renting an appartment, paying money to your economy. I will be eating, giving money to your economy. And when I leave Britain after my studies I will still owe many thousands more to your banks, which I will paying back of course with interest added.
I do not wish to begin another argument with you, but please accept that judging my motives before you know me or why I have made my plans is very unfair.

Dangermouse · May 6th 2010, 2:33pm

Princesa wrote:

I am saving money for my education, I am not "spending my riches" in any country. I could easily remain in Barcelona this summer and earn a same amount of money (perhaps more, as it is possible to earn more gratuities when there are many tourists in the city), however, if I do this I do not have the experience of seeing my niece for 7 weeks, I do not have the opportunity to practice more my English. When I have finished my compulsory education at the age of 18 I wish to study at University. I wish to study at either Edinburgh or Cambridge University. These are both in Britain. Therefore I will be spending many thousands of pounds in tuition fees in your economy. Of course in this time I will be renting an appartment, paying money to your economy. I will be eating, giving money to your economy. And when I leave Britain after my studies I will still owe many thousands more to your banks, which I will paying back of course with interest added.
I do not wish to begin another argument with you, but please accept that judging my motives before you know me or why I have made my plans is very unfair.

What you gonna study at uni, if it's Edinburgh I could show you around.

RMG, I completely disagree, first and foremost I'm a citizen of the world, then Europe, the Britain, then Scotland, then my local council area, then my hometown.

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